IRC log of fenfire on 2005-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:10:59 [rubberpaw]
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05:51:01 [majukati]
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06:34:32 [tuukkah]
cool, a lod system
08:47:32 [majukati]
it's a bit slow
08:55:54 [majukati]
but now benja can implement mouse dragging etc ;)
08:57:58 [majukati]
but the lecture is more important currently
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09:14:59 [benja_]
10:12:00 [tuukkah]
10:24:45 [antont]
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11:31:50 [tuukkah]
this seminar feels pretty pessimistic so far
11:32:29 [babel]
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11:32:38 [babel]
any need for me?
11:32:56 [babel]
I would love to serve anyone
11:34:20 [babel]
isn't it a warm and sunny day :-)
11:35:32 [benja_]
moi babel
11:35:39 [babel]
moin moin benja_
11:35:51 [benja_]
yes, please translate the interesting points! :)
11:35:51 [babel]
how can I help you?
11:36:04 [benja_]
tuukkah, why is it pessimistic?
11:36:16 [babel]
babel is now known as siltala_digest
11:36:40 [tuukkah]
the first one didn't say much positive
11:36:54 [tuukkah]
things are going badly and free software is bad
11:37:21 [benja_]
<siltala_digest> sha1: dic4f6gsd7bf5zhxslexzecbnvlalg2a, tigertree: o4kjuefkjlsnkraobccclvuq24coibpen34r2ri
11:37:53 [siltala_digest]
some developers want to study, some want something for themselves, some work in pay-job
11:38:29 [siltala_digest]
BSD is a exclusive development by uber-hackers how know everything better than others
11:38:47 [benja_]
* community-oriented non-profit associations
11:39:07 [benja_]
* community-oriented startup non-profit associations, that is
11:39:19 [benja_]
11:39:32 [benja_]
11:39:43 [siltala_digest]
Linux is popular because anybody could get their code included in it, and can, and it shows
11:39:56 [vegai]
* vegai agrees with that notion
11:40:09 [vegai]
well, not completely. "Anybody" is relative
11:40:22 [benja_]
11:40:34 [benja_]
and so is 'their code' ;-)
11:40:35 [vegai]
linux *is* pretty laisser-faire
11:40:43 [rubberpaw]
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11:40:44 [siltala_digest]
community help in FLUG has changed into commercial help
11:41:16 [vegai]
they tend to change highly critical parts of the kernel in a fast pace... in 'stable' versions
11:41:17 [benja_]
flug on 'flight' englanniksi
11:41:43 [siltala_digest]
* siltala_digest has registered the correction. thank you.
11:42:04 [vegai]
11:42:58 [siltala_digest]
'commons' here comes from when english lands were privatized in the name of capitalism.
11:43:21 [benja_]
so what does it mean?
11:43:29 [benja_]
the land before it was privatized, or what
11:43:33 [siltala_digest]
and serious FLOSS people try to stop this from happening with IP
11:43:42 [benja_]
11:43:43 [siltala_digest]
I suppose so
11:44:16 [benja_]
it makes sense when talking about patents
11:44:17 [siltala_digest]
they fear that development will stop with privatation
11:44:34 [tuukkah]
benja_, I think with other stuff as well
11:44:47 [tuukkah]
like the copyright on mickey mouse
11:44:59 [tuukkah]
or DRM that stops you from quoting etc.
11:45:22 [benja_]
11:45:34 [benja_]
11:46:24 [siltala_digest]
essential was that torvalds started as opposing minix and its exclusive and slow devel process
11:47:22 [siltala_digest]
linus's terminal emulator started to ressemble emacs (which is the text editor from hell)
11:47:42 [siltala_digest]
and so it became an OS called Linux
11:48:10 [siltala_digest]
others have tried to copy the success of Linux
11:49:01 [siltala_digest]
(... technical stuff ...)
11:49:13 [vegai]
[is this lecturer ok?]
11:49:39 [tuukkah]
he promised in the start he wouldn't talk about business, law or technology
11:49:51 [benja_]
11:49:53 [tuukkah]
vegai, in which sense?
11:50:10 [benja_]
so far it seems all pretty well-known stuff
11:50:20 [vegai]
does he know what he's talking about? I'm been to some lectures about free software, and usually they don't seem to
11:50:25 [siltala_digest]
(... are proprietary drivers in the kernel ok ...)
11:50:26 [benja_]
the point that linux isn't an average project was somewhat interesting
11:50:58 [tuukkah]
vegai, he's an activity theory researcher at
11:51:07 [tuukkah]
sorry, ;-)
11:51:33 [benja_]
"People don't drive cars. They drive Hondas and Fords" -- hmm, I disagree =)
11:52:03 [siltala_digest]
in practise
11:52:03 [benja_]
vegai, the slides give the impression that the lecturer understands the topic
11:52:28 [tuukkah]
sorry if babel isn't doing a good job
11:52:28 [vegai]
yep, ok. Is that Juha Siltala?
11:52:36 [benja_]
but they don't contain stuff I didn't know already
11:52:39 [tuukkah]
juha k. siltala
11:52:57 [vegai]
yep. Somehow I know that name but can't remember from where
11:53:04 [vegai]
that's probably a good sign :)
11:53:16 [tuukkah]
he has perhaps visited the fenfire project
11:53:51 [benja_]
uh, 'userland' and 'frontier' (in title of current slide) remind me of a proprietary product...
11:54:12 [tuukkah]
at least his colleagues have: Jussi Silvonen and Juha-Matti Leminen
11:55:12 [benja_]
games: well, it seems we're starting to get games =)
11:55:24 [benja_]
although we're well behind
11:55:35 [vegai]
11:55:39 [vegai]
nethack was here first
11:55:53 [vegai]
depends on what rocks your boat, that is :)
11:55:55 [tuukkah]
contemporary video games
11:56:05 [benja_]
I mean 'behind' mostly in terms of graphics and related technology
11:56:11 [siltala_digest]
in entertainment there is no free software
11:56:30 [benja_]
we're somewhere where DOS/Win was in the mid-90s, I think
11:56:42 [vegai]
only with a much better foundation
11:56:46 [vegai]
but otherwise, yeah
11:56:47 [siltala_digest]
there are games that are used long, like nethack that is played through generations
11:57:02 [benja_]
gameplay hasn't improved much at all, so not in that sense =)
11:57:10 [siltala_digest]
this is linux desktop from 1992
11:57:24 [vegai]
I'd actually argue that gameplay has deteriorated greatly since 1986
11:57:34 [vegai]
but that's another issue ;)
11:57:49 [siltala_digest]
looks dark, networking works, traditional unix workstation...
11:58:10 [siltala_digest]
this is linux desktop a bit later, FVWM
11:58:22 [siltala_digest]
graphical web browser
11:58:38 [siltala_digest]
this is linux desktop 1997, Gnome 1.0
11:58:42 [vegai]
* vegai fears what he will say that is the linux desktop of 2005.
11:59:38 [tuukkah]
he had to show Gnome 2.10 in newest Ubuntu already, because that's what we're having for the presentation
11:59:44 [benja_]
now we see FreeCiv :-)
11:59:52 [siltala_digest]
usability is bad
12:00:05 [siltala_digest]
control center has thousands of buttons
12:00:22 [siltala_digest]
this wasn't suitable for office work
12:01:08 [benja_]
uh, the slides are from 2002 :-/
12:01:13 [siltala_digest]
Havoc Pennington in 1997 "Configurability is always preferrable", and then in 2002 "Make it just work"
12:01:37 [siltala_digest]
now a recent gnome desktop
12:01:57 [siltala_digest]
and a configuration editor like regedit.exe
12:02:00 [benja_]
but ok, they appear to have been updated later
12:02:07 [benja_]
(the (c) on the slides says 2002 still)
12:02:21 [siltala_digest]
but the user normally sees only a simple interface
12:02:47 [siltala_digest]
and the settings are worded to be understandable
12:03:35 [siltala_digest]
so in the end, the desktop is more interesting than traditional unix tools, because this can be for everyone
12:03:54 [siltala_digest]
1. software has to be free
12:03:57 [benja_]
ubuntu says "software should be free of charge"? cool, *now* I learned something new I'm interested in :)
12:04:01 [siltala_digest]
2. it has to be on the local language
12:04:10 [benja_]
siltala_digest: free of charge, the slide says
12:04:26 [siltala_digest]
3. it has to be accessible to blind etc.
12:04:37 [vegai]
"Ubuntu is Free Software, and available to you free of charge. It's also Free in the sense of giving you rights of Software Freedom, but you probably knew that already!"
12:04:38 [siltala_digest]
* siltala_digest is sorry again
12:04:40 [vegai]
12:04:55 [vegai]
12:05:00 [tuukkah]
taululla lukee "Ubuntu manifesto"
12:05:00 [benja_]
vegai: the slides refer to a manifesto
12:05:02 [benja_]
12:05:40 [siltala_digest]
in afrika there's one gnome hacker
12:06:06 [siltala_digest]
most are in europe or the us
12:06:21 [siltala_digest]
one is in antarctica
12:06:27 [siltala_digest]
the the debian map
12:06:36 [benja_]
one in greenland
12:06:42 [siltala_digest]
about the same, with this guy in antarctica
12:07:33 [benja_]
* benja_ cannot find the 'ubuntu manifesto'
12:08:18 [benja_]
siltala_digest, what is he saying about this integration hunt?
12:08:26 [vegai]
benja_: me neither
12:08:37 [vegai]
but the frontpage of *mentions* it anyway
12:09:06 [siltala_digest]
miguel had to make a non-free connector between gnome and microsoft mail server
12:09:11 [benja_]
yeah, including "available free of charge"
12:09:25 [siltala_digest]
now Novell has free'ed them
12:09:53 [vegai]
benja_: but it mentions the 'real' freedom in the next paragraph
12:10:16 [siltala_digest]
Novell is now ready to pay big bounties on integration features, but the features don't make it into official gnome
12:10:35 [siltala_digest]
gnome isn't very inclusive in terms of development
12:10:36 [benja_]
vegai: I was aware they are committed to free as in speech, but I'm delighted to see they're committed to free as in 'beer', too
12:10:46 [siltala_digest]
I built this organization chart yesterday
12:10:46 [benja_]
'free as in ware' :-)
12:10:46 [vegai]
ah, that was your point. Ok
12:11:25 [siltala_digest]
"everybody else" contains gnome foundation and interested businesses
12:11:29 [benja_]
the organization chart is great :)
12:11:43 [benja_]
a great piece of satire
12:11:46 [siltala_digest]
"maintainers" decide everything
12:11:50 [benja_]
both on Gnome and on organization charts :)
12:12:06 [tuukkah]
benja_, please argue something sensible
12:12:29 [benja_]
tuukkah, ?
12:12:41 [siltala_digest]
novell needs to maintain a fork, which is expensive and removes the advantages of free software
12:12:51 [tuukkah]
benja_ :-/
12:12:59 [tuukkah]
this is so pessimistic again
12:13:05 [tuukkah]
I fail to see the humour :-/
12:13:17 [siltala_digest]
Sun doesn't get any contribution
12:13:26 [siltala_digest]
12:13:39 [benja_]
it reminds me of that pie chart where the pie was divided into two equal parts, the left part saying "50%" and the right part also saying "50%"
12:14:34 [siltala_digest] codebase was originally by a little German team, and it's structured so that no-one can help easily
12:14:39 [benja_]
tuukkah, I don't know, perhaps I don't find it so pessimistic because I'm not that interested in GNOME anyway -- dunno
12:14:52 [siltala_digest]
now Sun wants the new features in Java, which people like even less
12:15:13 [tuukkah]
benja_, well, overall, as this is what he took as the example
12:15:20 [benja_]
I think the OO.o stuff isn't completely true
12:15:43 [benja_]
I also found the mentions of Ubuntu non-depressing
12:15:46 [siltala_digest]
there is no community, but there's a network
12:16:33 [siltala_digest]
it's not developed in developing countries
12:16:49 [siltala_digest]
(localization is different)
12:16:59 [benja_]
in the sense that, Ubuntu is looks like it can become an end-user-useful distro that isn't like the distro version of the problems he described with OO.o
12:17:47 [siltala_digest]
KDE has more open development model
12:17:53 [benja_]
12:18:15 [siltala_digest]
KDE is dynamic and has crazy unsuitable features
12:18:40 [siltala_digest]
siltala_digest is now known as babel_asko
12:18:48 [babel_asko]
how to sum this up?
12:19:18 [babel_asko]
perhaps developing countries should get software development resources
12:19:34 [babel_asko]
babel_asko is now known as babel_audience
12:19:39 [babel_audience]
they don't have free time
12:20:01 [babel_audience]
babel_audience is now known as babel_siltala
12:20:18 [babel_siltala]
I only took the examples of really relevant, commercial projects
12:20:32 [benja_]
12:20:58 [babel_siltala]
sun should create an development institute in India, because they would want to develop there
12:21:12 [babel_siltala]
babel_siltala is now known as babel_humppake
12:21:15 [babel_humppake]
let's move on
12:21:36 [babel_humppake]
tapani tarvainen and software patents
12:22:50 [babel_humppake]
babel_humppake is now known as babel_tarvainen
12:23:04 [benja_]
*sigh* another finnish prezn
12:23:05 [babel_tarvainen]
legal terms are difficult so I'll talk in Finnish
12:23:10 [babel_tarvainen]
there's not much time
12:23:21 [tuukkah]
benja_, sorry :-(
12:23:21 [benja_]
maybe you want to skip the translation of this
12:23:27 [tuukkah]
12:23:32 [babel_tarvainen]
12:23:41 [babel_tarvainen]
babel_tarvainen is now known as tarvainen_digest
12:23:56 [benja_]
(I mean, translating legal terms probably isn't much easier than speaking in English in the first place =))
12:23:58 [tarvainen_digest]
GPL depends on copyright law
12:25:23 [benja_]
hmm, I just had this weird idea because Tapani's using HTML slides
12:25:38 [tuukkah]
12:25:41 [benja_]
how about having slides with HTML links to external resources, and giving the audience the URI?
12:25:54 [tuukkah]
benja_, sure!
12:25:57 [benja_]
and saying in the presentation, "click here if you want to know more about..."
12:26:24 [benja_]
i.e., using the audience's computers to hypertextualize your presentation or something ;-)
12:27:29 [tarvainen_digest]
the new suggested laws make harsh punishment for stuff you can do accidentally
12:28:54 [tarvainen_digest]
laws talk of commercial use in ways that are incompatible with free software
12:29:21 [tarvainen_digest]
such as you can make interoperable if there is significant commercial use
12:35:11 [rubberpaw]
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12:38:56 [benja_]
what does the time limit mean -- what would the law require of whom
12:38:57 [tarvainen_digest]
this is what you can send to your representatives as suggestions
12:39:16 [benja_]
(would it make it illegal to publish DRM tech w/o time limit, or...)
12:40:05 [tarvainen_digest]
you shouldn't use DRM to get limits that aren't included in law
12:40:36 [tarvainen_digest]
there should be a time limit in DRM so that when copyright expires the DRM expires too
12:44:36 [tarvainen_digest]
is music industry 'industry'
12:46:53 [tarvainen_digest]
even if you write the software yourself, you are not allowed to use it in your work
12:47:28 [benja_]
the third point from bottom on current slide applies to ff, by the way
12:47:36 [tarvainen_digest]
I can't see
12:48:00 [benja_]
"If 'invention' is a process involving a computer program, selling or distributing the program is only indirect (contributory) infringement, its use by the end user is a direct one"
12:48:22 [tuukkah]
what's the implications?
12:48:27 [benja_]
I don't know
12:48:36 [benja_]
that the end users can be sued, too? :-(
12:48:57 [tuukkah]
well, if they use it otherwise than at home
12:49:01 [benja_]
12:49:03 [benja_]
12:49:08 [benja_]
you want to ask?
12:49:16 [tuukkah]
you can ask yourself :-)
12:49:22 [benja_]
you asked here :-)
12:49:24 [tuukkah]
he sai you can stop him :-)
12:50:11 [tarvainen_digest]
selling a kit to build is direct infringement
12:50:26 [tarvainen_digest]
but a program is indirect
12:51:39 [tuukkah]
12:52:18 [tuukkah]
indirect means that you can defend by saying you didn't know of the patent
12:52:35 [tuukkah]
and the punishment is smaller
12:54:29 [tarvainen_digest]
digi-tv recording is patented, so if you publish free software for it you infringe
12:57:37 [tarvainen_digest]
under the current law, almost all cases of software have been able to be patented
12:59:08 [vegai]
* vegai thinks about patenting Cata ;-P
12:59:26 [vegai]
"A method for transferring the tree structure of an optical media to a RAM media." ;-)
12:59:57 [tarvainen_digest]
patent should help spread information, but as a program is only information, patent can't help here
13:00:39 [tarvainen_digest]
to distribute a patent description can't infringe, but if you publish an explanation of the description, you may infrigne
13:01:44 [tarvainen_digest]
microsoft is going to try to crush samba and with their patents
13:04:31 [tarvainen_digest]
lot of the same problems that apply to free software apply to university research too
13:45:10 [vegai]
GPL3 didn't pop up in any discussion, I guess?
13:51:12 [benja_]
vegai: not in any English one ;)
13:52:28 [benja_]
I don't think there's much to say about GPL 3 until the FSF publish their first draft...
13:54:09 [vegai]
yeah, I guess. Expect gossip
13:59:24 [vegai]
so... I wonder how dangerous and wrong it would be to make a URN-generating function pure
13:59:36 [vegai]
with unsafePerformIO
14:00:56 [vegai]
I mean... URNs are supposed to be unique, so their generating should be independant of the environment, right?
14:02:13 [rubberpaw]
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14:10:23 [benja_]
vegai, I don't really understand
14:10:41 [benja_]
it's not pure because it returns something different every time
14:10:50 [benja_]
but I think you're aware of that ;)
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15:04:54 [vegai]
ok, not pure
15:04:58 [vegai]
non-monadic, still
15:05:52 [vegai]
because the order of the action (generating a new URN) doesn't matter, does it?
15:06:57 [ibid]
good evening :)
15:07:05 [vegai]
ah, ibid
15:07:09 [vegai]
you probably have an opinion
15:07:29 [ibid]
siltala stood in for me there ;)
15:07:33 [ibid]
on what?
15:07:53 [vegai]
on how crazy it is to use unsafePerformIO when generating new URNs
15:08:18 [ibid]
depends on if you need it
15:08:30 [ibid]
there's no point in discussing it in the abstract
15:09:51 [vegai]
15:10:41 [ibid]
ah, i read the above now
15:11:02 [rubberpaw]
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15:11:06 [ibid]
well, it can only be pure if its return value is a function of its parameter(s)
15:11:40 [vegai]
so anything with random numbers isn't.. ok
15:11:44 [ibid]
i suppose you want to have a newURI :: URI which calls a rng under uPIO; that's definitely not a pure function
15:11:45 [vegai]
I guess I knew that already
15:12:02 [vegai]
yes, exactly
15:12:35 [ibid]
the problem is, how many times will it be called :)
15:12:47 [ibid]
say, in let uri = newURI in (uri, uri)
15:14:24 [vegai]
15:14:41 [ibid]
or (newURI, newURI) ;)
15:14:50 [ibid]
(the answer is the same to both questions)
15:16:29 [ibid]
what you could in principle do is to have a uriOf :: Document -> URI function, which generates a new URI when it first sees a document and remembers the URI for subsequent calls with the same document
15:16:48 [ibid]
that'd be a legit use of uPIO, though you still need to be careful
15:19:47 [vegai]
yep, that sounds good
15:20:37 [ibid]
of course, you need to be careful with what is a "same" document :)
15:21:32 [vegai]
perhars uriOf would always check from a database backend (or whatever) if a document already exists
15:21:52 [vegai]
and uriOf, when generating a new URI, would always write to the backend before returing
15:21:59 [vegai]
though that would be very side-effecty there
15:22:25 [ibid]
i think it's better to first check an unsafe identifier (eg. pointers) and if that fails, check a digest
15:24:34 [vegai]
sounds dangerous
15:27:47 [ibid]
15:28:10 [vegai]
because I don't understand it fully
15:28:29 [majukati]
sounds a great programming language
15:28:41 [ibid]
majukati: hm?
15:30:21 [vegai]
perhaps I should just play it safe and make it newURI :: IO Uri
15:31:37 [vegai]
well, I could use that even if I go with the uriOf -way
15:34:14 [vegai]
it's just kinda sad if you have to be in the IO monad all the time to use this stuff
15:34:33 [ibid]
well, if you think that IO is sad ...
15:36:02 [tarvainen_digest]
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15:36:39 [vegai]
no, not particularily ;)
15:36:52 [vegai]
but its absence is happy
15:37:11 [vegai]
or ..... fun!
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16:56:01 [majukati]
benja_: read your mail
16:56:01 [humppake]
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16:56:15 [benja_]
what, all of it?
16:56:29 [benja_]
17:00:16 [majukati]
and i want the plan what we wrote for the course to fill in the course page, please
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17:07:27 [benja_]
I have no idea what you are talking about
17:07:35 [majukati]
17:07:58 [majukati]
in mail or the request above?
17:08:19 [benja_]
the request above
17:09:45 [majukati]
you wrote a plan file where all dates and topics are written, i am interested to see it
17:10:33 [majukati]
date and topics of lectures
17:10:50 [majukati]
17:11:45 [benja_]
did I? I can't find such a file
17:11:51 [benja_]
I'll reconstruct from memory
17:12:18 [majukati]
we wrote it together
17:12:35 [benja_]
majukati: I don't believe we wrote a file
17:12:53 [rubberpaw]
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17:12:54 [benja_]
I think we made a list but didn't save it
17:13:01 [majukati]
17:13:09 [majukati]
sounds good ;)
17:13:10 [benja_]
14.4.: Fenfire programming
17:13:22 [benja_]
21.4.: Storm or Alph
17:13:29 [benja_]
28.4. (1): Storm or Alph
17:13:36 [benja_]
28.4. (2): Libvob
17:13:44 [benja_]
10.5. Seminar
17:14:03 [benja_]
I think we should cover Storm and Alph in one lecture, though
17:14:30 [benja_]
[5.5.: No lecture]
17:15:41 [majukati]
Fenfire programming sounds broad :)
17:17:04 [majukati]
Lobs on sommiteoliot =)
17:18:25 [majukati]
benja_: one thing for one lecture is good enough
17:19:20 [majukati]
i have a fear that no programming projects are presented at ending seminar
17:19:56 [benja_]
majukati: I think it's unbalanced
17:20:14 [majukati]
which is unbalanced?
17:20:33 [benja_]
having separate lectures for storm and alph, especially alph
17:20:54 [benja_]
especially looking at your plan for the next lecture ;)
17:21:44 [majukati]
benja_: you write a feedback then ;)
17:22:06 [benja_]
yes, that's what I'm doing
17:22:25 [benja_]
(actually, writing a counter-proposal :))
17:28:10 [benja_]
17:49:51 [majukati]
18:07:12 [rubberpaw]
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18:07:24 [majukati]
18:13:36 [benja_]
majukati, I feel frustrated because you don't seem to be interested at all in making this a course with a practical component. Lecture notes are more important than having something the students can use, for the lecture?
18:15:37 [benja_]
I thought this lecture was about how to do something with Fenfire
18:19:02 [majukati]
yes, and there is a point where you need to start pickking the fruits and leave coding to background :)
18:19:54 [majukati]
sorry if i frustate you but that's not how i can work. i need to process these things longer
18:20:13 [benja_]
we have talked about EXACTLY this plan last friday
18:20:25 [benja_]
now you want to do something completely different
18:22:47 [majukati]
yes, broad consept - now we need to split it to smaller parts
18:23:03 [tuukkah]
I think this situation was pretty much inevitable when you decided to make this course. fenfire is not proven and stable technology, identities are a new subject for course (first in the world?) etc. but the course doesn't have to be perfect
18:24:10 [benja_]
so are you saying you want to bump writing Fenfire views to another lecture?
18:24:54 [benja_]
I don't see a reason for that, frankly
18:25:05 [majukati]
benja_: i can not follow
18:25:15 [benja_]
21:22 < majukati> yes, broad consept - now we need to split it to smaller parts
18:25:27 [benja_]
you don't want to do view programming in this lecture
18:25:47 [benja_]
("Graah, we don't have this yet. We should start writing lecture notes
18:25:49 [benja_]
already and not grumble with code..")
18:25:54 [benja_]
so how should I understand this?
18:27:42 [benja_]
(I need to go soon, back around 11pm)
18:27:49 [benja_]
(not yet, but soon)
18:28:46 [majukati]
i don't know since i don't know that eather - maybe i feel frustated since there's no simple task that i could start working on :/
18:28:56 [majukati]
18:29:18 [benja_]
what kind of task? (programming? lecture notes? other?)
18:30:47 [majukati]
let's say that we need lecture notes for all stuff but how we are going to schedule that is not decided yet
18:31:29 [benja_]
you mean schedule when to have the lecture notes?
18:31:51 [majukati]
no, who lectures each part and so on
18:32:59 [majukati]
when is before lecture, i.e., 12:15 on Thursday
18:33:38 [benja_]
I don't understand what you mean, sorry :-(
18:37:04 [majukati]
do you want to lecture the whole lecture or do we divide it to pieces?
18:37:50 [benja_]
I would like to divide it, but of course you need to say which parts you feel you could give
18:38:10 [majukati]
ok, no we are at the point :)
18:39:03 [majukati]
(is that phrase the same as in Finnish?)
18:39:15 [benja_]
I don't know it as a special phrase :)
18:39:17 [majukati]
meaning that now we are in the business
18:39:27 [majukati]
or something related
18:39:37 [benja_]
so, give me some business then and tell me which parts you want :)
18:41:57 [majukati]
do you like odds or the opposite of odds?
18:42:24 [majukati]
odd, even
18:42:30 [benja_]
I don't care I think\
18:43:21 [majukati]
ok, i would like to take odd(s)
18:44:08 [majukati]
from your list
18:44:11 [benja_]
note that "the javolution preprocessor" would be pretty short, these are not trying to be equal sized
18:45:03 [majukati]
yes i can add some words about memory areas and how this seems to be quite nice system after all
18:45:13 [benja_]
18:45:35 [benja_]
a) javolution is an even one, b) I think the lecture is very full, not too empty
18:46:39 [majukati]
ah yes
18:46:39 [benja_]
(I need to go in 3 minutes or so, back around 11 as I said)
18:46:48 [majukati]
see you then
18:46:54 [benja_]
18:47:16 [benja_]
(it's the laundry thing again ;))
18:48:20 [majukati]
good, you are clean and tidy tomorrow :)
19:07:37 [Tulitar]
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19:10:02 [benja_]
back already, I'm too tired to sit in the laundry room till 11
19:10:09 [benja_]
majukati, :-)
19:10:26 [benja_]
yes, I wanted to put on different trousers today but didn't have any left :-(
19:11:07 [benja_]
I'll probably just have to leave the laundry in the laundry room till tomorrow
19:12:10 [tuukkah]
I gave someone instructions how they should be able to develop fenfire on ubuntu live, and told them there's probably more trouble and they should start a discussion on the list when they hit the first problem
19:13:43 [tuukkah]
so, there's one thing solved. either they send mail, or they don't
19:13:52 [benja_]
* benja_ wonders what Hanna meant by netquota
19:14:22 [benja_]
tuukkah, I think we should give them a jar to develop against, then they can use Win if they like -- what do you think?
19:14:50 [tuukkah]
I wholeheartedly agree
19:15:07 [majukati]
benja_: in ylioppilaskylä they have netquota, i.e., if you download too much your connection gets very very slow
19:15:16 [tuukkah]
otoh, so much about linux, darcs, emacs then ...
19:16:28 [benja_]
tuukkah, hm? did you want them to learn darcs? :)
19:16:54 [tuukkah]
yes. otherwise they don't know how to update, merge, and send patches :-)
19:17:15 [benja_]
oh well, we just don't give them the source with the jar ;-)
19:17:36 [tuukkah]
makes sense =)
19:18:36 [benja_]
/. reports that a museum director got indicted for selling an astronaut's in-flight t-shirt
19:18:59 [benja_]
news for nerds, stuff that matters :)
19:20:21 [benja_]
* benja_ should do some work on the linebreaker thing -- well, after reading this article [*]
19:20:29 [benja_]
[*] not the t-shirt one
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19:32:11 [tuukkah]
hmm, is there anything else to think about jar than .rj preprocessor?
19:32:47 [tuukkah]
and that there probably are some file reads that aren't made to work from jar
19:33:26 [benja_]
tuukkah: .rj preprocessor: we just need to distribute the preprocessor py file as well
19:34:04 [tuukkah]
well well
19:34:05 [benja_]
file reads: only one I'm aware of, the XSLT for converting RSS2.0 / Atom to RSS 1.0
19:34:16 [tuukkah]
yes, that one :-)
19:35:02 [tuukkah]
if you distribute a py file, should you distribute it as a jar file with jython runtime and a proper main class
19:36:24 [benja_]
I don't want to do that -- it's work and the result is very slow
19:37:17 [benja_]
although admittedly easier to use if you have Java anyway
19:37:35 [benja_]
but then again, if you do it the other way you get people to start using Python ;)
19:37:38 [tuukkah]
do you want them to install python?
19:37:46 [benja_]
tuukkah: yeah
19:37:53 [tuukkah]
but not darcs...
19:38:09 [benja_]
tuukkah, the compile process is not easy to make work on Windows
19:38:26 [tuukkah]
which compile process?
19:38:39 [benja_]
tuukkah: the thing you do after 'darcs get' and before 'make run'
19:39:22 [tuukkah]
well, wasn't the only problem these .rj files?
19:39:36 [benja_]
that tool called 'make'?
19:39:49 [benja_]
the order of dependencies?
19:39:51 [tuukkah]
does it do anything interesting?
19:40:03 [tuukkah]
I don't think we use it for that
19:40:13 [benja_]
tuukkah, order of dependencies of projects
19:40:21 [benja_]
it doesn't do anything interesting. so?
19:40:27 [benja_]
it does boring things
19:40:30 [tuukkah]
we don't do even that with make
19:40:43 [benja_]
tuukkah: I didn't say we did. I was making a list
19:40:44 [benja_]
1. make
19:40:48 [benja_]
2. order of dependencies
19:41:33 [tuukkah]
I think you make one jar of the sources, extract it and type javac org/fenfire/
19:41:53 [benja_]
you want the students to do that?
19:42:04 [tuukkah]
the last to steps?
19:42:07 [tuukkah]
19:42:26 [benja_]
tuukkah, then they don't learn how to use darcs -- I totally fail to see your point :-(
19:42:55 [tuukkah]
I'm sorry
19:42:56 [benja_]
22:37 < tuukkah> do you want them to install python?
19:42:56 [benja_]
22:37 < benja_> tuukkah: yeah
19:42:56 [benja_]
22:37 < tuukkah> but not darcs...
19:43:49 [benja_]
so I told you that the point was not that I don't want them to install darcs, but that compiling from source obtained through darcs is too hard
19:44:05 [benja_]
installing python is not
19:44:27 [benja_]
did at least I get my point across now or are we still both failing to? ;)
19:44:40 [tuukkah]
ok, compiling from repo source is not difficult
19:44:57 [benja_]
if you have the tools, it isn't
19:45:40 [tuukkah]
cd fenfire && javac -cp ../fenfire.jar org/fenfire/
19:46:39 [tuukkah]
perhaps javac even uses classpath to locate java files
19:47:10 [tuukkah]
so we don't need fenfire.jar and you can modify more than one subproject at a time
19:47:27 [benja_]
tuukkah, that doesn't compile the .rj
19:48:04 [benja_]
otherwise, the one with the classpath does recompile ff source, true
19:48:12 [benja_]
19:48:29 [tuukkah]
when you edit a .rj, you run java -jar rj.jar file.rj
19:48:30 [benja_]
" so we don't need fenfire.jar" -- but do need to set a complex classpath?
19:49:31 [tuukkah]
something like -cp fenfire.jar:../navidoc:../storm:../alph:../libvob
19:49:43 [benja_]
erm, that includes fenfire.jar
19:49:53 [benja_]
then you don't need the ../navidoc etc?
19:50:00 [benja_]
if you haven't changed them
19:50:07 [tuukkah]
well, you need those you have changed
19:50:24 [benja_]
anyway, this discussion seems orthogonal to whether to have rj.jar or ask the students to install py
19:50:29 [tuukkah]
we need something like fenfire.jar because of all the dependensies
19:50:41 [benja_]
19:50:58 [tuukkah]
so we can as well have everything there
19:51:20 [tuukkah]
installing py on windows is nothing I know
19:51:35 [benja_]
tuukkah, it's something I know
19:51:39 [benja_]
it's trivial
19:52:42 [benja_]
* benja_ started using Python on Windows
19:53:57 [benja_]
I mean, I'd be more interested in the jar if it didn't mean that it'll take say 40 seconds instead of 5 to compile
19:55:14 [tuukkah]
ok, then python install it is :-)
19:55:17 [benja_]
19:55:37 [tuukkah]
19:55:43 [benja_]
19:56:09 [majukati]
dragController is needed
19:56:43 [benja_]
19:57:56 [benja_]
for which cases do we need it right now?
19:58:07 [benja_]
(trying to think how it should work)
19:58:11 [majukati]
hm, it's not really important
19:58:39 [majukati]
did you already pushed the non-content-but-something-else view?-)
19:58:54 [benja_]
no, because of bugs
19:59:00 [benja_]
that happen sometimes
19:59:03 [benja_]
I'll push it now, anyway
19:59:09 [majukati]
19:59:31 [majukati]
if you push now, they are just features
19:59:45 [benja_]
19:59:56 [majukati]
since nobody pushes buggy code ;)
20:01:23 [benja_]
is there
20:01:40 [benja_]
make run in fenfire, hit Alt-V
20:05:03 [ffdarcsbot]
libvob: Benja Fallenstein <>, fixes to ScaleLob and Tray
20:06:00 [majukati]
benja_: do we now need property check box view too to have less information on these boxes?
20:07:25 [majukati]
and add click controller so you can edit these boxes, or what was the idea of editing data?-)
20:08:34 [benja_]
majukati, making them editable is a bit hard (because how should the focus be handled?)
20:08:57 [benja_]
property check box listbox may be good
20:09:16 [ffdarcsbot]
fenfire: Benja Fallenstein <>, a content view showing multiple properties of a node, somewhat similar to Naked Objects' view
20:25:05 [majukati]
demo (show how to use it -- show FOAF/DOAP data) what is needed for this? (i'm still a bit unsure how the user moves in the structure..
20:25:46 [benja_]
majukati: unfortunately, I am, too. :-( :-( -- but I would suggest that we do something really simple for now; I could add left-click-to-move trivially
20:25:46 [majukati]
s/what is needed for this?/what was the idea how to move with these views in the structure/
20:26:18 [benja_]
of course, that would give us only moving *forward* in the current system
20:26:43 [benja_]
because the proplist view shows only forward connection
20:26:45 [benja_]
20:27:06 [majukati]
maybe we can add backward connections
20:27:17 [majukati]
before the "Foo"
20:27:42 [benja_]
yrgh -- the Foo is like a title...
20:27:54 [majukati]
yes, then it's in the center :)
20:27:54 [benja_]
how about having a three-column table
20:28:07 [benja_]
property in middle, and connections left/right from it
20:29:42 [majukati]
if we add left-click-to focus so we infring the patent?
20:29:49 [majukati]
20:30:15 [benja_]
majukati, it could be argued that we do
20:30:29 [benja_]
depending on how broad you see it, it could be argued that web browsers infringe it, too
20:30:37 [benja_]
(web browsers predate the patent)
20:32:14 [majukati]
just we say that these aren't ideas but standard vocabularies and there isn't strong extension to web browser
20:32:53 [benja_]
sorry, I don't understand
20:33:38 [rubberpaw]
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20:33:40 [majukati]
i don't know
20:34:13 [majukati]
mowing always infrings if next thing is in the focus
20:34:42 [majukati]
on the other hand, next thing is more like a title with set of properties - not an idea
20:35:36 [benja_]
majukati, the patent does not define what a "thought" is -- I don't think we can know what they might argue in court what this word means
20:35:52 [benja_]
in their software, it can even be a Word document, I think
20:37:17 [majukati]
let's not discuss this now if that's ok. let's make them pretty much like current web links
20:37:29 [benja_]
which left click does
20:37:30 [vegai]
so, here's where I'm going to build my stuff:
20:37:46 [vegai]
it's already buildable... alas, it has no features
20:37:54 [vegai]
but I dare say that it has no bugs!
20:38:01 [majukati]
with *blue* _underscores_ !
20:38:16 [benja_]
20:38:18 [vegai]
(sorry for the disturbance, carry on :)
20:38:24 [benja_]
vegai: =)
20:38:47 [benja_]
vegai, isn't having both URN-5.hs and URN5.hs a bug in itself ;)
20:38:58 [vegai]
20:39:03 [vegai]
that's a bug of rsync
20:39:07 [benja_]
20:39:11 [vegai]
I believe if you darcs get it, you only get URN5.hs
20:39:39 [vegai]
20:41:23 [majukati]
"Fenfire Clone written in Haskell" -- It seems that everyone is trying to make his/her own port of fenfire :)
20:41:42 [vegai]
those who do not understand Foo are bound to reimplement it, poorly
20:42:20 [vegai]
the description may have to change to "Tools for Fenfire, written in Haskell"
20:42:38 [ffdarcsbot]
fenfire: Benja Fallenstein <>, show both forward and backward links
20:43:10 [vegai]
there are many parts of fenfire that I won't touch
20:43:25 [vegai]
GUIs is one of those
20:43:29 [vegai]
20:44:05 [majukati]
so which part is the cloning thing then?
20:44:27 [vegai]
I'm not sure yet
20:44:40 [vegai]
that's why I think that "tools" might be a better name
20:44:56 [vegai]
or "library"
20:45:31 [vegai]
but isn't the name cute? =)
20:46:36 [majukati]
anyway, good that someone is actively developing his software project so we can grade others than ourselvs too to have credits :)
20:49:47 [benja_]
20:50:14 [vegai]
I fixed the .cabal to be more 'accurate'
20:50:23 [vegai]
20:50:46 [vegai]
should I give some sort of project plan to you?
20:52:02 [majukati]
you will present the whole thing at the seminar but if you want you can, as well of ask help :)
20:54:32 [majukati]
as well as you can ask help if needed (but we will only answer questions about fenfire code ;)
20:56:01 [ffdarcsbot]
fenfire: Benja Fallenstein <>, make click-to-move work, grey out "<no value>"
20:57:49 [majukati]
benja_: how to make the title bigger and centered? i put hbox and added glue, resulting XXX Error negative diff size
20:58:11 [benja_]
making it bigger: scale more. center it: try alignlob
20:58:35 [benja_]
the negative diff size is a difficult problem, let's talk about it tomorrow
20:58:44 [benja_]
(or after thursday perhaps)
21:01:00 [vegai]
eep, seminar
21:01:14 [vegai]
* vegai is not a big fan.
21:03:19 [majukati]
it has been marked as informal so don't take too much stress
21:05:52 [majukati]
that is, if you don't present your software, someone else do :))
21:08:39 [majukati]
benja_: vbox doesn't seem to care much about foo
21:08:44 [majukati]
's scale
21:09:21 [majukati]
aha, that's because of align
21:10:22 [majukati]
and scale doesn't make any change
21:10:31 [majukati]
if run without align
21:10:40 [majukati]
there's something broken in the system
21:12:49 [benja_]
majukati, you have pulled in libvob?
21:17:22 [majukati]
no, that seems to fix scale bug
21:22:03 [majukati]
now the vbox doesn't count the maxium of that box, should it?
21:28:16 [benja_]
I don't understand
21:28:30 [benja_]
I should go to bed, let's discuss additional bugs tomorrow ;)
21:28:44 [majukati]
ok, i will go to bed too
21:28:58 [benja_]
ok, cu :)
22:09:01 [rubberpaw]
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23:17:28 [benja_]
argh, stayed up much longer than I wanted to :-(
23:17:42 [benja_]
because I wanted to root out the linebreaking bugs
23:17:57 [benja_]
well, at least it works now ;)
23:18:01 [benja_]
23:21:14 [ffdarcsbot]
libvob: Benja Fallenstein <>, fix TableLob.layoutOneAxis to do "the right thing" generally; add DebugLob which prints out debug info about the methods called; fixes
23:25:17 [ffdarcsbot]
fenfire: Benja Fallenstein <>, fixes
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