00:10:59 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 05:51:01 huomenta 06:08:06 rubberpaw has quit 06:23:40 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 06:34:32 cool, a lod system 08:47:32 it's a bit slow 08:55:54 but now benja can implement mouse dragging etc ;) 08:57:58 but the lecture is more important currently 09:04:39 rubberpaw has quit 09:14:59 huomenta! 10:12:00 hello 10:24:45 hei 10:35:06 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 11:31:50 this seminar feels pretty pessimistic so far 11:32:29 babel has joined #fenfire 11:32:38 any need for me? 11:32:56 I would love to serve anyone 11:34:20 isn't it a warm and sunny day :-) 11:35:32 moi babel 11:35:39 moin moin benja_ 11:35:51 yes, please translate the interesting points! :) 11:35:51 how can I help you? 11:36:04 tuukkah, why is it pessimistic? 11:36:16 babel is now known as siltala_digest 11:36:40 the first one didn't say much positive 11:36:54 things are going badly and free software is bad 11:37:21 sha1: dic4f6gsd7bf5zhxslexzecbnvlalg2a, tigertree: o4kjuefkjlsnkraobccclvuq24coibpen34r2ri 11:37:53 some developers want to study, some want something for themselves, some work in pay-job 11:38:29 BSD is a exclusive development by uber-hackers how know everything better than others 11:38:47 * community-oriented non-profit associations 11:39:07 * community-oriented startup non-profit associations, that is 11:39:19 s/BSD/Fenfire/ 11:39:32 ;-) 11:39:43 Linux is popular because anybody could get their code included in it, and can, and it shows 11:39:56 * vegai agrees with that notion 11:40:09 well, not completely. "Anybody" is relative 11:40:22 mhm 11:40:34 and so is 'their code' ;-) 11:40:35 linux *is* pretty laisser-faire 11:40:43 rubberpaw has quit 11:40:44 community help in FLUG has changed into commercial help 11:41:16 they tend to change highly critical parts of the kernel in a fast pace... in 'stable' versions 11:41:17 flug on 'flight' englanniksi 11:41:43 * siltala_digest has registered the correction. thank you. 11:42:04 ? 11:42:58 'commons' here comes from when english lands were privatized in the name of capitalism. 11:43:21 so what does it mean? 11:43:29 the land before it was privatized, or what 11:43:33 and serious FLOSS people try to stop this from happening with IP 11:43:42 hmm 11:43:43 I suppose so 11:44:16 it makes sense when talking about patents 11:44:17 they fear that development will stop with privatation 11:44:34 benja_, I think with other stuff as well 11:44:47 like the copyright on mickey mouse 11:44:59 or DRM that stops you from quoting etc. 11:45:22 hmm 11:45:34 ok 11:46:24 essential was that torvalds started as opposing minix and its exclusive and slow devel process 11:47:22 linus's terminal emulator started to ressemble emacs (which is the text editor from hell) 11:47:42 and so it became an OS called Linux 11:48:10 others have tried to copy the success of Linux 11:49:01 (... technical stuff ...) 11:49:13 [is this lecturer ok?] 11:49:39 he promised in the start he wouldn't talk about business, law or technology 11:49:51 =) 11:49:53 vegai, in which sense? 11:50:10 so far it seems all pretty well-known stuff 11:50:20 does he know what he's talking about? I'm been to some lectures about free software, and usually they don't seem to 11:50:25 (... are proprietary drivers in the kernel ok ...) 11:50:26 the point that linux isn't an average project was somewhat interesting 11:50:58 vegai, he's an activity theory researcher at hel.fi 11:51:07 sorry, helsinki.fi ;-) 11:51:33 "People don't drive cars. They drive Hondas and Fords" -- hmm, I disagree =) 11:52:03 in practise 11:52:03 vegai, the slides give the impression that the lecturer understands the topic 11:52:28 sorry if babel isn't doing a good job 11:52:28 yep, ok. Is that Juha Siltala? 11:52:36 but they don't contain stuff I didn't know already 11:52:39 juha k. siltala 11:52:57 yep. Somehow I know that name but can't remember from where 11:53:04 that's probably a good sign :) 11:53:16 he has perhaps visited the fenfire project 11:53:51 uh, 'userland' and 'frontier' (in title of current slide) remind me of a proprietary product... 11:54:12 at least his colleagues have: Jussi Silvonen and Juha-Matti Leminen 11:55:12 games: well, it seems we're starting to get games =) 11:55:24 although we're well behind 11:55:35 depends 11:55:39 nethack was here first 11:55:53 depends on what rocks your boat, that is :) 11:55:55 contemporary video games 11:56:05 I mean 'behind' mostly in terms of graphics and related technology 11:56:11 in entertainment there is no free software 11:56:30 we're somewhere where DOS/Win was in the mid-90s, I think 11:56:42 only with a much better foundation 11:56:46 but otherwise, yeah 11:56:47 there are games that are used long, like nethack that is played through generations 11:57:02 gameplay hasn't improved much at all, so not in that sense =) 11:57:10 this is linux desktop from 1992 11:57:24 I'd actually argue that gameplay has deteriorated greatly since 1986 11:57:34 but that's another issue ;) 11:57:49 looks dark, networking works, traditional unix workstation... 11:58:10 this is linux desktop a bit later, FVWM 11:58:22 graphical web browser 11:58:38 this is linux desktop 1997, Gnome 1.0 11:58:42 * vegai fears what he will say that is the linux desktop of 2005. 11:59:38 he had to show Gnome 2.10 in newest Ubuntu already, because that's what we're having for the presentation 11:59:44 now we see FreeCiv :-) 11:59:52 usability is bad 12:00:05 control center has thousands of buttons 12:00:22 this wasn't suitable for office work 12:01:08 uh, the slides are from 2002 :-/ 12:01:13 Havoc Pennington in 1997 "Configurability is always preferrable", and then in 2002 "Make it just work" 12:01:37 now a recent gnome desktop 12:01:57 and a configuration editor like regedit.exe 12:02:00 but ok, they appear to have been updated later 12:02:07 (the (c) on the slides says 2002 still) 12:02:21 but the user normally sees only a simple interface 12:02:47 and the settings are worded to be understandable 12:03:35 so in the end, the desktop is more interesting than traditional unix tools, because this can be for everyone 12:03:54 1. software has to be free 12:03:57 ubuntu says "software should be free of charge"? cool, *now* I learned something new I'm interested in :) 12:04:01 2. it has to be on the local language 12:04:10 siltala_digest: free of charge, the slide says 12:04:26 3. it has to be accessible to blind etc. 12:04:37 "Ubuntu is Free Software, and available to you free of charge. It's also Free in the sense of giving you rights of Software Freedom, but you probably knew that already!" 12:04:38 * siltala_digest is sorry again 12:04:40 (says ubuntu.com) 12:04:55 sorry, ubuntulinux.org 12:05:00 taululla lukee "Ubuntu manifesto" 12:05:00 vegai: the slides refer to a manifesto 12:05:02 *googles* 12:05:40 in afrika there's one gnome hacker 12:06:06 most are in europe or the us 12:06:21 one is in antarctica 12:06:27 the the debian map 12:06:36 one in greenland 12:06:42 about the same, with this guy in antarctica 12:07:33 * benja_ cannot find the 'ubuntu manifesto' 12:08:18 siltala_digest, what is he saying about this integration hunt? 12:08:26 benja_: me neither 12:08:37 but the frontpage of ubuntulinux.org *mentions* it anyway 12:09:06 miguel had to make a non-free connector between gnome and microsoft mail server 12:09:11 yeah, including "available free of charge" 12:09:25 now Novell has free'ed them 12:09:53 benja_: but it mentions the 'real' freedom in the next paragraph 12:10:16 Novell is now ready to pay big bounties on integration features, but the features don't make it into official gnome 12:10:35 gnome isn't very inclusive in terms of development 12:10:36 vegai: I was aware they are committed to free as in speech, but I'm delighted to see they're committed to free as in 'beer', too 12:10:46 I built this organization chart yesterday 12:10:46 'free as in ware' :-) 12:10:46 ah, that was your point. Ok 12:11:25 "everybody else" contains gnome foundation and interested businesses 12:11:29 the organization chart is great :) 12:11:43 a great piece of satire 12:11:46 "maintainers" decide everything 12:11:50 both on Gnome and on organization charts :) 12:12:06 benja_, please argue something sensible 12:12:29 tuukkah, ? 12:12:41 novell needs to maintain a fork, which is expensive and removes the advantages of free software 12:12:51 benja_ :-/ 12:12:59 this is so pessimistic again 12:13:05 I fail to see the humour :-/ 12:13:17 Sun doesn't get any contribution 12:13:26 (to OO.org) 12:13:39 it reminds me of that pie chart where the pie was divided into two equal parts, the left part saying "50%" and the right part also saying "50%" 12:14:34 OO.org codebase was originally by a little German team, and it's structured so that no-one can help easily 12:14:39 tuukkah, I don't know, perhaps I don't find it so pessimistic because I'm not that interested in GNOME anyway -- dunno 12:14:52 now Sun wants the new features in Java, which people like even less 12:15:13 benja_, well, overall, as this is what he took as the example 12:15:20 I think the OO.o stuff isn't completely true 12:15:43 I also found the mentions of Ubuntu non-depressing 12:15:46 there is no community, but there's a network 12:16:33 it's not developed in developing countries 12:16:49 (localization is different) 12:16:59 in the sense that, Ubuntu is looks like it can become an end-user-useful distro that isn't like the distro version of the problems he described with OO.o 12:17:47 KDE has more open development model 12:17:53 yeah 12:18:15 KDE is dynamic and has crazy unsuitable features 12:18:40 siltala_digest is now known as babel_asko 12:18:48 how to sum this up? 12:19:18 perhaps developing countries should get software development resources 12:19:34 babel_asko is now known as babel_audience 12:19:39 they don't have free time 12:20:01 babel_audience is now known as babel_siltala 12:20:18 I only took the examples of really relevant, commercial projects 12:20:32 hmm 12:20:58 sun should create an oo.org development institute in India, because they would want to develop there 12:21:12 babel_siltala is now known as babel_humppake 12:21:15 let's move on 12:21:36 tapani tarvainen and software patents 12:22:50 babel_humppake is now known as babel_tarvainen 12:23:04 *sigh* another finnish prezn 12:23:05 legal terms are difficult so I'll talk in Finnish 12:23:10 there's not much time 12:23:21 benja_, sorry :-( 12:23:21 maybe you want to skip the translation of this 12:23:27 ok 12:23:32 ok 12:23:41 babel_tarvainen is now known as tarvainen_digest 12:23:56 (I mean, translating legal terms probably isn't much easier than speaking in English in the first place =)) 12:23:58 GPL depends on copyright law 12:25:23 hmm, I just had this weird idea because Tapani's using HTML slides 12:25:38 yes? 12:25:41 how about having slides with HTML links to external resources, and giving the audience the URI? 12:25:54 benja_, sure! 12:25:57 and saying in the presentation, "click here if you want to know more about..." 12:26:24 i.e., using the audience's computers to hypertextualize your presentation or something ;-) 12:27:29 the new suggested laws make harsh punishment for stuff you can do accidentally 12:28:54 laws talk of commercial use in ways that are incompatible with free software 12:29:21 such as you can make interoperable if there is significant commercial use 12:35:11 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 12:38:56 what does the time limit mean -- what would the law require of whom 12:38:57 this is what you can send to your representatives as suggestions 12:39:16 (would it make it illegal to publish DRM tech w/o time limit, or...) 12:40:05 you shouldn't use DRM to get limits that aren't included in law 12:40:36 there should be a time limit in DRM so that when copyright expires the DRM expires too 12:44:36 is music industry 'industry' 12:46:53 even if you write the software yourself, you are not allowed to use it in your work 12:47:28 the third point from bottom on current slide applies to ff, by the way 12:47:36 I can't see 12:48:00 "If 'invention' is a process involving a computer program, selling or distributing the program is only indirect (contributory) infringement, its use by the end user is a direct one" 12:48:22 what's the implications? 12:48:27 I don't know 12:48:36 that the end users can be sued, too? :-( 12:48:57 well, if they use it otherwise than at home 12:49:01 y 12:49:03 true 12:49:08 you want to ask? 12:49:16 you can ask yourself :-) 12:49:22 you asked here :-) 12:49:24 he sai you can stop him :-) 12:50:11 selling a kit to build is direct infringement 12:50:26 but a program is indirect 12:51:39 so 12:52:18 indirect means that you can defend by saying you didn't know of the patent 12:52:35 and the punishment is smaller 12:54:29 digi-tv recording is patented, so if you publish free software for it you infringe 12:57:37 under the current law, almost all cases of software have been able to be patented 12:59:08 * vegai thinks about patenting Cata ;-P 12:59:26 "A method for transferring the tree structure of an optical media to a RAM media." ;-) 12:59:57 patent should help spread information, but as a program is only information, patent can't help here 13:00:39 to distribute a patent description can't infringe, but if you publish an explanation of the description, you may infrigne 13:01:44 microsoft is going to try to crush samba and oo.org with their patents 13:04:31 lot of the same problems that apply to free software apply to university research too 13:45:10 GPL3 didn't pop up in any discussion, I guess? 13:51:12 vegai: not in any English one ;) 13:52:28 I don't think there's much to say about GPL 3 until the FSF publish their first draft... 13:54:09 yeah, I guess. Expect gossip 13:59:24 so... I wonder how dangerous and wrong it would be to make a URN-generating function pure 13:59:36 with unsafePerformIO 14:00:56 I mean... URNs are supposed to be unique, so their generating should be independant of the environment, right? 14:02:13 rubberpaw has quit 14:10:23 vegai, I don't really understand 14:10:41 it's not pure because it returns something different every time 14:10:50 but I think you're aware of that ;) 14:33:25 jvk has quit 14:33:58 jvk has joined #fenfire 15:04:54 ok, not pure 15:04:58 non-monadic, still 15:05:52 because the order of the action (generating a new URN) doesn't matter, does it? 15:06:57 good evening :) 15:07:05 ah, ibid 15:07:09 you probably have an opinion 15:07:29 siltala stood in for me there ;) 15:07:33 on what? 15:07:53 on how crazy it is to use unsafePerformIO when generating new URNs 15:08:18 depends on if you need it 15:08:30 there's no point in discussing it in the abstract 15:09:51 yeah.. 15:10:41 ah, i read the above now 15:11:02 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 15:11:06 well, it can only be pure if its return value is a function of its parameter(s) 15:11:40 so anything with random numbers isn't.. ok 15:11:44 i suppose you want to have a newURI :: URI which calls a rng under uPIO; that's definitely not a pure function 15:11:45 I guess I knew that already 15:12:02 yes, exactly 15:12:35 the problem is, how many times will it be called :) 15:12:47 say, in let uri = newURI in (uri, uri) 15:14:24 right 15:14:41 or (newURI, newURI) ;) 15:14:50 (the answer is the same to both questions) 15:16:29 what you could in principle do is to have a uriOf :: Document -> URI function, which generates a new URI when it first sees a document and remembers the URI for subsequent calls with the same document 15:16:48 that'd be a legit use of uPIO, though you still need to be careful 15:19:47 yep, that sounds good 15:20:37 of course, you need to be careful with what is a "same" document :) 15:21:32 perhars uriOf would always check from a database backend (or whatever) if a document already exists 15:21:52 and uriOf, when generating a new URI, would always write to the backend before returing 15:21:59 though that would be very side-effecty there 15:22:25 i think it's better to first check an unsafe identifier (eg. pointers) and if that fails, check a digest 15:24:34 sounds dangerous 15:27:47 why? 15:28:10 because I don't understand it fully 15:28:29 sounds a great programming language 15:28:41 majukati: hm? 15:30:21 perhaps I should just play it safe and make it newURI :: IO Uri 15:31:37 well, I could use that even if I go with the uriOf -way 15:34:14 it's just kinda sad if you have to be in the IO monad all the time to use this stuff 15:34:33 well, if you think that IO is sad ... 15:36:02 tarvainen_digest has quit 15:36:39 no, not particularily ;) 15:36:52 but its absence is happy 15:37:11 or ..... fun! 16:27:31 [back] 16:32:38 antont has quit 16:32:38 jvk has quit 16:32:38 vegai has quit 16:32:38 rubberpaw has quit 16:32:38 ibid has quit 16:32:38 mudyc_ has quit 16:32:38 benja_ has quit 16:32:38 majukati has quit 16:32:38 humppake has quit 16:32:38 tuukkah has quit 16:33:40 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 jvk has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 ibid has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 mudyc_ has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 vegai has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 benja_ has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 majukati has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 humppake has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 tuukkah has joined #fenfire 16:33:40 antont has joined #fenfire 16:35:57 rubberpaw has quit 16:56:01 benja_: read your mail 16:56:01 humppake has quit 16:56:15 what, all of it? 16:56:29 :) 17:00:16 and i want the plan what we wrote for the course to fill in the course page, please 17:05:58 humppake has joined #fenfire 17:07:27 I have no idea what you are talking about 17:07:35 ok 17:07:58 in mail or the request above? 17:08:19 the request above 17:09:45 you wrote a plan file where all dates and topics are written, i am interested to see it 17:10:33 date and topics of lectures 17:10:50 s/ate/ates/ 17:11:45 did I? I can't find such a file 17:11:51 I'll reconstruct from memory 17:12:18 we wrote it together 17:12:35 majukati: I don't believe we wrote a file 17:12:53 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 17:12:54 I think we made a list but didn't save it 17:13:01 ugh 17:13:09 sounds good ;) 17:13:10 14.4.: Fenfire programming 17:13:22 21.4.: Storm or Alph 17:13:29 28.4. (1): Storm or Alph 17:13:36 28.4. (2): Libvob 17:13:44 10.5. Seminar 17:14:03 I think we should cover Storm and Alph in one lecture, though 17:14:30 [5.5.: No lecture] 17:15:41 Fenfire programming sounds broad :) 17:17:04 Lobs on sommiteoliot =) 17:18:25 benja_: one thing for one lecture is good enough 17:19:20 i have a fear that no programming projects are presented at ending seminar 17:19:56 majukati: I think it's unbalanced 17:20:14 which is unbalanced? 17:20:33 having separate lectures for storm and alph, especially alph 17:20:54 especially looking at your plan for the next lecture ;) 17:21:44 benja_: you write a feedback then ;) 17:22:06 yes, that's what I'm doing 17:22:25 (actually, writing a counter-proposal :)) 17:28:10 sent 17:49:51 thinking.. 18:07:12 rubberpaw has quit 18:07:24 sent 18:13:36 majukati, I feel frustrated because you don't seem to be interested at all in making this a course with a practical component. Lecture notes are more important than having something the students can use, for the lecture? 18:15:37 I thought this lecture was about how to do something with Fenfire 18:19:02 yes, and there is a point where you need to start pickking the fruits and leave coding to background :) 18:19:54 sorry if i frustate you but that's not how i can work. i need to process these things longer 18:20:13 we have talked about EXACTLY this plan last friday 18:20:25 now you want to do something completely different 18:22:47 yes, broad consept - now we need to split it to smaller parts 18:23:03 I think this situation was pretty much inevitable when you decided to make this course. fenfire is not proven and stable technology, identities are a new subject for course (first in the world?) etc. but the course doesn't have to be perfect 18:24:10 so are you saying you want to bump writing Fenfire views to another lecture? 18:24:54 I don't see a reason for that, frankly 18:25:05 benja_: i can not follow 18:25:15 21:22 < majukati> yes, broad consept - now we need to split it to smaller parts 18:25:27 you don't want to do view programming in this lecture 18:25:47 ("Graah, we don't have this yet. We should start writing lecture notes 18:25:49 already and not grumble with code..") 18:25:54 so how should I understand this? 18:27:42 (I need to go soon, back around 11pm) 18:27:49 (not yet, but soon) 18:28:46 i don't know since i don't know that eather - maybe i feel frustated since there's no simple task that i could start working on :/ 18:28:56 s/eather/either/ 18:29:18 what kind of task? (programming? lecture notes? other?) 18:30:47 let's say that we need lecture notes for all stuff but how we are going to schedule that is not decided yet 18:31:29 you mean schedule when to have the lecture notes? 18:31:51 no, who lectures each part and so on 18:32:59 when is before lecture, i.e., 12:15 on Thursday 18:33:38 I don't understand what you mean, sorry :-( 18:37:04 do you want to lecture the whole lecture or do we divide it to pieces? 18:37:50 I would like to divide it, but of course you need to say which parts you feel you could give 18:38:10 ok, no we are at the point :) 18:39:03 (is that phrase the same as in Finnish?) 18:39:15 I don't know it as a special phrase :) 18:39:17