IRC log of fenfire on 2005-04-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:28:11 [rubberpaw]
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02:36:28 [tuukkah]
oops
04:36:53 [rubberpaw]
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04:36:56 [rubberpaw]
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06:22:59 [majukati]
texbook is available as tex but says that it's copyrighted material and only for use to test TeX :)
06:40:13 [majukati]
benja_: i try to do lob visual printter before i come
06:44:34 [majukati]
s/do/construct/
07:33:50 [benja_]
huomenta
07:33:55 [benja_]
majukati, ok
07:34:06 [benja_]
s/construct/write/ :)
07:34:09 [benja_]
or make
07:34:13 [benja_]
perhaps
07:34:47 [benja_]
tuukkah, ?
07:35:01 [benja_]
oops as in, "oops, I'm still awake?" :)
07:35:06 [majukati]
done
07:35:11 [benja_]
:)
07:35:22 [benja_]
where shall we meet?
07:35:29 [majukati]
took 30 minutes more than i expected
07:35:43 [benja_]
I'm on second floor above the door next to the bus station at the moment
07:38:02 [majukati]
ok, it takes like 30 minutes to walk there
07:38:52 [benja_]
ok
07:43:23 [majukati]
pushed
07:43:57 [benja_]
I'll look at it while you come here
07:47:45 [ibid]
wow, another +4 post on slashdot for me :)
07:49:02 [tuukkah]
benja_, yes :-)
07:49:08 [benja_]
=)
07:49:39 [ffdarcsbot]
libvob: Matti J. Katila <majukati@cc.jyu.fi>, add lob's visual printout util to help documentation
07:49:46 [benja_]
"ajk (944)"
07:49:53 [ibid]
yeah, so?:)
07:50:08 [benja_]
nothing :)
07:50:18 [rubberpaw]
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07:51:53 [benja_]
typical that you get your +4 with a correcting post *plants tongue in cheek*
07:52:51 [ibid]
are you saying it was *not* an informative post? ;)
07:53:45 [benja_]
no, and I can't even say it was a +4 Nice Nitpick ;-)
07:54:00 [ibid]
heh
07:54:43 [vegai]
Ian doesn't like Ubuntu very much, does he
07:55:35 [benja_]
Ian?
07:55:45 [tuukkah]
from Debian :-)
07:56:14 [ibid]
DebIAN
07:56:23 [ibid]
murdock
07:56:57 [tuukkah]
(Deb|Ian)Murdock :-)
07:57:17 [ibid]
yeah
07:58:40 [benja_]
*looks at weblog* sounds to me like he's asking for one particular thing (debian compatibility), not saying "Ubuntu is bad"
07:59:57 [tuukkah]
aren't the same packages available for both, just not the same compiled binary packages
08:00:23 [benja_]
tuukkah, I don't know, try reading what he says yourself ;)
08:00:31 [benja_]
http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000244.html
08:00:50 [tuukkah]
yeah, I'm about to
08:00:58 [benja_]
"If you want a glimpse of what will happen, take a look at the RPM world, where software developers and ISVs have to build a different RPM for every RPM-based distro [...]."
08:02:12 [tuukkah]
now, 'to build' here has several meanings
08:03:05 [tuukkah]
to one the solution is source packages, to the other it's the fact that Ubuntu always forks from Sid
08:06:30 [vegai]
speaking of OSes, DragonflyBSD just made a release
08:55:53 [rubberpaw]
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10:03:15 [jvk]
majukati, benja: ayh?
10:08:02 [benja_]
jvk: yes
10:08:03 [benja_]
we are
10:11:47 [rubberpaw]
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10:12:43 [jvk]
benja: could we meet before the meeting?
10:13:49 [benja_]
ok, we are at the fireplace room
10:13:56 [benja_]
should we come to your office?
10:56:03 [rubberpaw]
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11:16:39 [tuukkah]
i hope the meeting goes fine
11:25:11 [rubberpaw]
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14:28:06 [benja_]
back, btw
14:29:11 [tuukkah]
hello
14:29:43 [benja_]
we need to get forms from teliasonera and kyperjokki, and sort out the rights thing
14:30:08 [tuukkah]
rights?
14:30:14 [benja_]
copyright
14:30:15 [benja_]
s
14:30:43 [benja_]
(who will own the copyrights created by the project and how the association can use them)
14:31:16 [tuukkah]
as in whether the copyright is assigned to persons, the association, or companies
14:31:33 [benja_]
it most likely has to be assigned to the university due to tekes process
14:31:54 [benja_]
and the university can't just give it away due to legal issues
14:32:04 [tuukkah]
-/
14:32:38 [tuukkah]
so how do you go about sorting this out? consult lawyers?
14:32:45 [benja_]
the uni lawyer, yes
14:33:18 [tuukkah]
good. and then you get funding ?-)
14:33:39 [benja_]
then we have a better chance when they decide who gets funding
14:36:56 [benja_]
in a couple of weeks
14:37:18 [tuukkah]
so you're in hurry :-/
14:37:38 [benja_]
well, they said we should have it in 2-3 weeks
14:38:06 [benja_]
that's not a problem except perhaps for the teliasonera part, which is out of our control
14:38:07 [tuukkah]
the sooner the better, I'd assume
14:38:10 [benja_]
y
14:38:26 [tuukkah]
kyperjokki is in fenfire's control ;-)
14:39:00 [benja_]
;)
14:39:54 [benja_]
the tekes person also mentioned research-to-business funding
14:40:00 [tuukkah]
do you and the uni still have good contacts in teliasonera? then it probably won't take long
14:40:12 [benja_]
tuukkah, the problem is inside teliasonera
14:40:39 [benja_]
matti will ask the contact person there for the status
14:41:00 [benja_]
the research-to-business got us thinking again about business opportunities for the association
14:41:21 [tuukkah]
you are not allowed to think such =)
14:41:24 [benja_]
my opinion is that if we want the association to make money, we have to make that a goal and work for it
14:41:49 [benja_]
tuukkah, certainly we are allowed to consider how the association make money?
14:41:59 [tuukkah]
we have to make a legal business entity
14:42:17 [tuukkah]
ok, if you don't call it "making money"
14:42:31 [benja_]
whatever
14:42:37 [tuukkah]
"fund it's operation"
14:42:40 [tuukkah]
its
14:44:16 [benja_]
the point stands
14:44:35 [rubberpaw]
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14:45:02 [tuukkah]
if we want the association to have money for operation, we have to make that a goal and work for it. ok. :-)
14:45:16 [benja_]
=)
14:45:48 [benja_]
I've been wondering whether we have the interest / energy. whether I do, specifically, since I can't say much about you others =)
14:46:22 [tuukkah]
I suppose anybody is free to propose any kind of operation and budget for the association. then we'll hold a general meeting and decide
14:47:04 [benja_]
tuukkah, true, but that doesn't answer the question. and I think if the decision isn't clear before the general meeting there's no chance it can work anyway ;)
14:47:19 [benja_]
in the sense that it would have to be clear to all the relevant people that we want to do this
14:47:29 [Tulitar]
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14:47:30 [tuukkah]
sure
14:47:43 [tuukkah]
hello Tulitar :-)
14:47:43 [Tulitar]
en sure.
14:47:46 [benja_]
matti would be willing to work on a business because it might provide a more stable way of getting income...
14:47:52 [benja_]
bonjour, Tulitar
14:47:53 [tuukkah]
Tulitar, oh, ensure what ?-)
14:48:19 [Tulitar]
bonjour tout le monde
14:48:31 [benja_]
wie gehts
14:48:41 [Tulitar]
benja_, gut, wie immer.
14:48:42 [tuukkah]
danke gut. gleichfalls?
14:48:53 [benja_]
ja, gleichfalls -)
14:48:55 [Tulitar]
benja_, und dir denn?
14:49:03 [benja_]
gut, danke :)
14:49:14 [tuukkah]
ca va?
14:49:23 [benja_]
oui oui, es geht +)
14:50:01 [tuukkah]
ca va ca va!
14:50:08 [benja_]
one idea I was considering was to have a service storing 'backup copies' of people's fenfire data
14:50:26 [benja_]
('es geht' is like, 'well... ok...')
14:50:45 [tuukkah]
why backup copies in quotes?
14:50:57 [benja_]
because it would also allow them to access it from different computers
14:51:19 [benja_]
which would be as important as the backup functionality
14:51:31 [tuukkah]
hmm, so it would be something like gmail, mymac (?), wikiwikiweb.de
14:51:37 [benja_]
y
14:52:08 [tuukkah]
and the technology would also be googlefs
14:52:46 [benja_]
something like that (it should keep versions though)
14:53:09 [tuukkah]
oh yeah, so just something with storm directly
14:53:58 [benja_]
perhaps -- but that's technical details
14:54:45 [benja_]
my idea is that this way we would be delivering something that is actually interesting to us, as our product
14:54:53 [tuukkah]
I think we should think up scenarios with different kind of operations and respective budgets and ways to balance the budget
14:55:31 [tuukkah]
the technology comes into play when we think if we have enough energy
14:55:34 [benja_]
tuukkah, perhaps, but I think the most important thing is to think up ideas
14:55:59 [benja_]
my point being, I think at this level it is enough to consider "is it feasible," not work out the details...
14:56:24 [benja_]
"is it something that people want", thinking of what graham goes on about ;)
14:56:44 [tuukkah]
where people = we
14:56:54 [benja_]
tuukkah, no, I meant customers
14:57:05 [benja_]
but that question is important too
14:57:14 [benja_]
we need something that works on both of these counts ;)
14:57:25 [benja_]
the rest is implementation details ;) ;)
14:57:52 [tuukkah]
so in what point would there be enough fenfire users for there to be enough interested customers
14:58:08 [benja_]
(the one with the one smiley I meant, the one with the two smileys is tongue-in-cheek)
14:58:27 [tuukkah]
an earlier idea was to license code, right?
14:58:35 [benja_]
tuukkah, can we get enough users for fenfire, to be more precise -- but that's what you meant I think :)
14:58:39 [benja_]
tuukkah, yes
14:58:57 [benja_]
I'm not saying we shouldn't consider that, but I see the problem of enthusiasm for making it work
14:59:19 [tuukkah]
well, I wouldn't still be sure if they want a remote storage. there are such services already, but I don't know if they're popular
14:59:27 [benja_]
I think it would be significant work to make it something that customers (proprietary software companies) want
15:00:04 [benja_]
hm. I think I would strongly want such a thing if it *works*
15:00:09 [tuukkah]
I would expect Fenfire code to be such that no-one wants to re-implement it
15:00:26 [tuukkah]
except all students on the course ;-)
15:00:53 [tuukkah]
so is the case that the current services don't work?
15:01:29 [benja_]
tuukkah, I can't say anything for sure; I haven't used any of them
15:01:51 [tuukkah]
so how would we get people to try out ours?
15:02:11 [benja_]
tuukkah, well, it would be special in that it would be designed to work with fenfire
15:02:35 [tuukkah]
(basicly, I think the idea is a good one, but I don't know anything to say whether it'd work or not)
15:02:46 [benja_]
mhm
15:02:47 [benja_]
ok
15:03:16 [benja_]
let's perhaps not go into it too deeply before also trying to come up with other ideas
15:03:23 [tuukkah]
yes
15:03:41 [tuukkah]
we can start with the list from bylaws
15:03:44 [benja_]
an important question is, who do we want to get to use fenfire?
15:04:01 [tuukkah]
ourselves and our relatives :-)
15:04:17 [benja_]
can't find the english version
15:04:36 [tuukkah]
that would be my problem
15:05:36 [benja_]
I'm not excited about selling to businesses. not at all, I think :-/
15:05:50 [benja_]
selling, erm, not as in for money
15:05:53 [benja_]
as in promoting to them
15:06:06 [tuukkah]
so, there goes licensing and office users
15:06:26 [benja_]
tuukkah, well, I'm not trying to cut anything off, just stating my feelings :)
15:06:38 [tuukkah]
what about researchers?
15:06:44 [benja_]
hmm
15:06:50 [benja_]
more interested in that, perhaps
15:07:07 [benja_]
but I'd really like to 'sell' it to creative people and hobbyists. hmm
15:07:34 [rubberpaw]
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15:07:35 [benja_]
well, individuals, basically
15:07:59 [benja_]
perhaps I don't care so much if they use it for their job or whatever
15:08:18 [tuukkah]
what about administrative console like antont thought?
15:08:31 [benja_]
just that I don't really want to make something as company infrastructure and sell to a company
15:08:55 [benja_]
individuals who want to manage information
15:09:01 [benja_]
is what I'm most interested in, I think
15:09:03 [benja_]
how about you?
15:09:11 [benja_]
s/most //, perhaps
15:10:01 [tuukkah]
I don't know if I ever think that far
15:10:06 [benja_]
hmm
15:10:18 [tuukkah]
if I had something myself
15:10:46 [tuukkah]
fenfire is different from free software in general
15:10:52 [benja_]
hm?
15:11:12 [tuukkah]
I'm ready to work to get free software anywhere, I think
15:11:36 [benja_]
mhm
15:11:43 [benja_]
and the difference in Fenfire was? :)
15:11:44 [tuukkah]
the ethical argument is stronger than with fenfire
15:12:18 [benja_]
sorry, not following right now
15:12:23 [tuukkah]
well, perhaps the difference is mostly that I can already use free software in general, but not fenfire in particular
15:12:41 [tuukkah]
so I wouldn't want anyone to use it
15:13:03 [tuukkah]
but what I hope it would help me, I hope it would help people close to me too
15:13:11 [benja_]
hmm
15:13:26 [tuukkah]
programming is something
15:13:43 [tuukkah]
promoting fenfire to developers
15:14:19 [benja_]
I think I see part of the question as, who do we want to make it work for (as those would be the right customers for a potential business)
15:14:31 [benja_]
but hmm
15:15:21 [tuukkah]
apple makes profit by selling simple hardware that everybody can afford and use
15:15:45 [tuukkah]
so that would be one "business model"
15:15:48 [benja_]
...by tying it to a proprietary os...
15:16:09 [tuukkah]
I don't think that's how they make moneys
15:16:27 [benja_]
tuukkah, in the sense that, to get the usability of the os you have to buy the hardware
15:16:31 [tuukkah]
I think the ipod sale is said to be the lucrative part
15:16:42 [benja_]
hmm
15:16:54 [benja_]
well, ok, it's most important for them now, perhaps
15:16:56 [tuukkah]
mac mini is pretty cheap
15:17:42 [benja_]
so the suggestion was to make fenfire boxes?
15:17:58 [benja_]
(trying to stay on topic;))
15:18:09 [tuukkah]
although that hasn't worked for mac computers, next computers or beos computers
15:18:27 [benja_]
tuukkah, has worked for macs
15:18:37 [tuukkah]
if a fenfire box was cheap enough or built on commodity hardware
15:18:44 [benja_]
(apple's survived on it for decades:))
15:19:02 [benja_]
fenfire pdas might be important at some point
15:19:05 [benja_]
hmmmmm
15:19:19 [tuukkah]
benja_, I think they had to get jobs back and microsoft had to buy them before they've managed this far
15:19:41 [tuukkah]
I think we should think of this oda
15:19:42 [tuukkah]
pda
15:20:10 [benja_]
[can we sell that idea to teliasonera somehow ;)]
15:20:36 [tuukkah]
would it be more like mass storage, app server or mobile terminal
15:20:48 [benja_]
which one?
15:20:55 [tuukkah]
the pda
15:21:06 [benja_]
mobile terminal
15:21:19 [tuukkah]
then teliasonera is related
15:21:43 [benja_]
I mean, addressing the need to enter ideas &c on the road
15:21:54 [tuukkah]
now I'm beginning to regret again that I didn't take a summer job in mobile software prototyping... %-)
15:22:53 [tuukkah]
benja_, ok, perhaps fenfire is designed to blend so that you can't really say which one it is. I mean, I don't think we'd *require* network connection
15:23:05 [benja_]
no
15:23:15 [benja_]
network connection wouldn't be that important
15:23:19 [tuukkah]
so not a dumb terminal by any means
15:23:21 [benja_]
no
15:23:31 [benja_]
mobile 'mini-computer'
15:23:41 [tuukkah]
but not much data storage, as we'd sync mostly
15:23:42 [benja_]
well, much like current pda in a sense
15:23:59 [tuukkah]
and not a pda with apps as it'd be really simple
15:24:13 [tuukkah]
or
15:24:15 [benja_]
it might be interesting to consider running ff from it-as-a-storage-medium, though
15:24:27 [benja_]
(not sure, just another idea)
15:24:31 [tuukkah]
what do you mean?
15:24:41 [benja_]
i.e., the 'usb key with my data so that I can use any computer I find' thing
15:24:58 [tuukkah]
yes, that was one of the ideas
15:25:16 [tuukkah]
but we can also have a simple UI
15:25:24 [benja_]
when I'm on the road, I use the device itself; when I sit down in front of a computer, I run ff from it
15:25:32 [tuukkah]
exactly
15:26:05 [benja_]
ok, idea is clear
15:26:08 [benja_]
I think
15:26:18 [tuukkah]
then we have to think if the connection will be usb storage, wireless etc.
15:26:31 [tuukkah]
yes, what's next
15:26:39 [benja_]
more ideas, if we have ;)
15:27:14 [benja_]
fenfire tutorials... (teaching)
15:27:59 [benja_]
when we have enough ideas, I think the next step would be to ask, which user are they for? Does that user want the thing?
15:29:26 [benja_]
how do we make that user discover that they want this? ;)
15:29:43 [tuukkah]
how much would they be able and willing to pay
15:30:08 [tuukkah]
teaching is something we already have experience of
15:30:13 [tuukkah]
-)
15:30:24 [benja_]
to find out whether it is a feasible business model at all, yes
15:30:41 [benja_]
'can we make the product for less than we would sell it for'
15:31:48 [tuukkah]
well, customization and integration is something for companies, but could it be practical for individuals with fenfire platform?
15:32:37 [benja_]
hm, what are you getting at?
15:33:05 [benja_]
customization should be feasible since that's part of the point ;)
15:33:25 [benja_]
but of course, spreadsheets allow it in a similar sense
15:33:52 [tuukkah]
I mean, could customization or integration be one business idea?
15:34:25 [benja_]
customization and integration for whom and into what? :)
15:35:13 [tuukkah]
customization to users' needs and integration to their existing platform
15:36:02 [benja_]
tuukkah, I find that too vague still :)
15:36:05 [benja_]
can you give an example?
15:36:19 [tuukkah]
wrt free software it would be interesting to set up a full-service shop
15:36:32 [tuukkah]
with fenfire, could we skip some difficult parts
15:37:03 [tuukkah]
someone orders fenfire, and they get someone to transfer their current data
15:37:09 [benja_]
hmm
15:37:21 [tuukkah]
and it comes in a piano black box ;-)
15:37:25 [benja_]
=)
15:37:54 [tuukkah]
and you can connect it to the services (mail etc.) and appliances (tv etc.) that they have
15:37:59 [benja_]
would my mother be a potential customer? she has hundreds, perhaps thousands of poems in ms word- and oo.o files
15:38:04 [benja_]
and would like to have them in ff
15:38:26 [tuukkah]
so we would try to do a conversion
15:39:14 [benja_]
so would that be a case you'd be interested in working on for a business?
15:39:20 [benja_]
would it be a typical case?
15:39:26 [benja_]
or are you thinking more of corporate users?
15:40:04 [benja_]
(in this case, the solution might be to write a half-automated conversion script)
15:40:28 [benja_]
(which tries to find the right boundaries of the poems in a file etc. and then asks the user whether it got it correctly)
15:41:34 [tuukkah]
I don't know, I was wondering
15:41:41 [benja_]
hmm
15:41:57 [benja_]
it might be interesting, working with individuals who want to use fenfire
15:42:25 [tuukkah]
I think many of these really have a lot in common :-)
15:42:47 [benja_]
many of which? the business ideas? doesn't seems so, to me ;)
15:42:59 [benja_]
but this one is related to the teaching one
15:43:09 [tuukkah]
so in the end, now that we've revolutionized software, next would be it services ;-)
15:43:24 [benja_]
now that we have!
15:43:26 [benja_]
:)
15:43:55 [benja_]
(well, I don't see much revolutionary stuff in the above)
15:43:59 [tuukkah]
well, of course the pda would access the storage
15:44:23 [benja_]
y
15:44:34 [tuukkah]
it's good, users don't like a revolutionary service, they want something that is common but this time it works ;-)
15:45:20 [benja_]
I think the 'customization and integration for end-users' could actually be fascinating work
15:45:21 [tuukkah]
and conversion would work to put old data into storage
15:45:50 [benja_]
but there's the question what we could realistically charge, and if we can deliver on that price
15:45:56 [tuukkah]
benja_, would it be few people like ted who care enough to afford?
15:46:01 [benja_]
hmm
15:46:30 [benja_]
perhaps
15:46:55 [benja_]
if it was people like ted, the job would be both extremely cool and extremely tough -)
15:47:34 [tuukkah]
anyway, perhaps these ideas aren't tightly integrated as to depend on each other, but they could help one another
15:47:43 [benja_]
zeah
15:47:45 [benja_]
yeah
15:48:20 [tuukkah]
and we can start with the best area and build incrementally into a whole platform
15:50:03 [benja_]
hmm
15:50:20 [tuukkah]
even if we had the best technology, we have to consider where the competition is tough
15:50:43 [benja_]
perhaps
15:50:52 [tuukkah]
and how others will deploy our technology if it gains success
15:50:55 [benja_]
I like what Graham said -- make something people want
15:50:59 [benja_]
worry about that
15:52:28 [benja_]
how do we make fenfire something that people want?
15:52:45 [tuukkah]
well, there aren't many things people want *and* get
15:53:08 [tuukkah]
hassle-free information management
15:53:38 [benja_]
tuukkah, for Fenfire, we definitely have to show people that they want it
15:53:46 [tuukkah]
to me, email feels like the biggest hassle
15:53:49 [benja_]
it falls into the category of things that people don't know they want
15:53:51 [benja_]
but do
15:54:05 [tuukkah]
but gmail might be good for most people
15:54:46 [benja_]
I think Fenfire is partly about the long tail in information schemas =-]
15:54:56 [benja_]
(you're familiar with the 'long tail' concept?)
15:56:58 [tuukkah]
the tails in normal distribution?
15:57:16 [benja_]
in power-law distribution, I think
15:57:34 [benja_]
the first half is the first 15 items, but the other half is the 30 billion other items
15:57:58 [benja_]
google is the premier search engine because it searches the other half too
15:58:07 [benja_]
to make it short ;)
15:58:25 [benja_]
amazon has most books in print, unlike your local bookstore
15:58:39 [tuukkah]
ok
15:58:49 [tuukkah]
and fenfire is?
15:58:58 [benja_]
Fenfire allows you to put in your own schemas, so you're not bound to the popular ones which do only half of what you need
15:59:31 [benja_]
so e-mail alone isn't the killer app, it's e-mail combined with pet mice feeding management ;-)
16:00:15 [benja_]
or to stay realistic, nobody is going to sell poem and readings management software to my mother
16:00:40 [benja_]
it's an app that's deep in the long tail
16:00:43 [tuukkah]
but like a complete personal information management system
16:00:59 [benja_]
an extensible pim system
16:02:21 [tuukkah]
matti111 has the point that with the storage server, most difficult might be to get customers to trust data into it, take care of security, respond to unexpected situations and such
16:03:03 [benja_]
perhaps
16:03:40 [benja_]
if you include 'and such', it just about covers it, yes ;)
16:05:55 [benja_]
our 'typical user' is one who already has information to organize
16:06:03 [benja_]
even if they don't organize it currently for lack of tools
16:06:14 [tuukkah]
ok, so we explicitly exclude developing the software and putting up the system
16:06:53 [benja_]
tuukkah, running the system seems more difficult than developing the software for it, yes
16:07:08 [benja_]
but it can be done, which is enough for me at this stage ;)
16:07:50 [tuukkah]
then there's this Ubuntu/Fenfire live-cd =)
16:08:59 [tuukkah]
hmm, you could also install java plugin and use fenfire the applet to access the storage
16:09:21 [benja_]
y
16:09:27 [benja_]
or download the app and run it
16:10:30 [benja_]
so to me, the most important questions seem to be, what do we need sofware-wise for these users? and how are we going to get them to use it?
16:11:05 [benja_]
of course as to the latter question, word-of-mouth is of course most important
16:11:26 [tuukkah]
and that they want it :-)
16:11:33 [benja_]
yes
16:11:53 [benja_]
it has to be in the shape that they need it to be to use it
16:11:58 [tuukkah]
to answer the first, jonne's view is good, email view would be good
16:12:16 [tuukkah]
pdf reader would be really good
16:12:32 [benja_]
hmm
16:12:38 [benja_]
all true, but these are very specific things
16:13:00 [tuukkah]
oh, more like: stability, reliability
16:13:10 [tuukkah]
right, and usability
16:13:16 [benja_]
learnability
16:13:38 [tuukkah]
depends. if we teach the first ones
16:13:44 [tuukkah]
like ourselves
16:14:55 [benja_]
that helps, but I think we still need to aim for something that nerds can download and use
16:15:07 [benja_]
or slightly nerdish people :)
16:15:28 [benja_]
hmm
16:15:46 [benja_]
what is the level below these -ility words
16:15:47 [benja_]
;)
16:16:35 [benja_]
well, perhaps we should defer that. dunno
16:18:46 [tuukkah]
"requirements"?
16:19:14 [benja_]
yeah
16:19:38 [benja_]
* benja_ is hungry
16:20:07 [tuukkah]
ok, perhaps we should write these down and continue later
16:20:43 [benja_]
ok
16:20:54 [benja_]
what do we have so far
16:21:22 [benja_]
ideas: storage server, pda, fenboxes, teaching, customizing + data migration
16:21:37 [tuukkah]
first of all, we need to plan the operations of the association
16:22:01 [benja_]
tuukkah, what do you mean? that sounds a little too detailed to be 'first of all,' to me ;-)
16:23:07 [tuukkah]
that's why we're thinking in the first place
16:23:32 [benja_]
so it should be the last step :)
16:23:43 [benja_]
(final product of thinking :))
16:23:47 [tuukkah]
the enclosing step
16:23:52 [benja_]
ok, fine
16:25:10 [tuukkah]
customer groups: licensors, corporate desktops, corporate administration, home users, individuals who manage information, relatives, ourselves
16:25:26 [benja_]
hmm
16:25:27 [benja_]
ok
16:26:19 [benja_]
my favorite customer group: individuals who already have information to manage and would see a benefit from managing it in Fenfire
16:26:34 [tuukkah]
yes
16:26:39 [benja_]
that includes people in companies, but not the company rolling ff out over 200 desktops
16:27:33 [benja_]
advertising method: word-of-mouth, mention it in forums to seed that
16:27:58 [benja_]
and to people we know
16:28:46 [tuukkah]
feasibility: people must want it, there must be enough potential customers, they must want and be able to pay the expenses, we must be able to run the service
16:29:06 [benja_]
(re ad method:) which leaves us to build the software that our target group wants to use
16:29:45 [tuukkah]
... feasibility: *and* we must be interested in and have energy to implement and roll out the service
16:29:46 [benja_]
hmm, it seems like the next step is to evaluate the individual ideas for feasability in the sense you said
16:29:52 [benja_]
tuukkah: y
16:30:34 [tuukkah]
where to do this?
16:30:54 [benja_]
which one?
16:31:01 [tuukkah]
evaluation
16:31:42 [benja_]
here? =]
16:32:30 [tuukkah]
oh, we could use some kind of embedded document markers like raskin's software :-)
16:32:49 [tuukkah]
=== end of foundation operation ideas ===
16:33:18 [benja_]
lol
16:34:00 [tuukkah]
to get more ideas, we could put them in a wiki and ask others to add
16:34:16 [benja_]
would you do that?
16:34:28 [tuukkah]
well, I sure could
16:36:45 [benja_]
so if you consider it useful, please do :]
16:37:25 [tuukkah]
just a moment then. we can try and see if it proves useful
16:38:33 [benja_]
'kay
16:38:43 [benja_]
I guess I need to go to eat soon
16:38:59 [benja_]
(have to either go to a restaurant or go shopping)
16:42:58 [Tulitar]
benja_, choose restaurant.
16:43:05 [benja_]
=)
16:43:12 [benja_]
ok, if you say so ;)
16:49:19 [benja_]
I think Fenfire must become a kick-ass note taker
16:49:41 [benja_]
because that's the way at least I start almost all uses of it, I think
16:52:09 [benja_]
I'll go now and ponder more on the way, cu later :)
16:53:29 [benja_]
note taker seems like a thing that people can get into quickly
16:53:34 [benja_]
(perhaps e-mail organizer is too)
16:53:40 [benja_]
but, going now, really =)
16:56:17 [tuukkah]
http://fenfire.org/foundation/wiki
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17:55:40 [tuukkah]
oh it's tuesday already
18:07:11 [ibid]
heh
18:08:59 [tuukkah]
heh?
18:12:26 [ibid]
heh.
18:12:44 [tuukkah]
wtf
18:12:48 [ibid]
hm?
18:15:24 [Tulitar]
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18:46:36 [ibid]
"If fire-fighters fight fire and crime-fighters fight crime, what do
18:46:37 [ibid]
freedom-fighters fight?" - George Carlin
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19:04:41 [benja_]
moi
19:04:55 [ibid]
moi
19:05:03 [benja_]
tuukkah, I think ibid was amused that you didn't know it was tuesday
19:05:19 [ibid]
* ibid is sitting and listening in #spi @ OFTC for their board meeting
19:05:28 [benja_]
"If the opposite of pro is con, the opposite of progress is?"
19:05:43 [ibid]
heh
19:09:50 [benja_]
or my very personal one of these, if a "Fitnessgeräte-Fachmarkt" (fitnessgerät = hometrainer, fachmarkt = specialized market) sells hometrainers, and a Getränkefachmarkt (getränke = drinks) sells Getränke, what does a Baby-Fachmarkt sell?
19:10:00 [benja_]
(there is one in Bielefeld)
19:14:16 [vegai]
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20:02:58 [tuukkah]
benja_, thank you for your clarification
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21:15:01 [ffdarcsbot]
libvob: Benja Fallenstein <b.fallenstein@gmx.de>, add drag controller
21:19:08 [ffdarcsbot]
fenfire: Benja Fallenstein <b.fallenstein@gmx.de>, use drag controller to implement canvas dragging. SLOW
21:28:38 [ffdarcsbot]
libvob: Benja Fallenstein <b.fallenstein@gmx.de>, simple speed fix