00:28:11 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 02:36:28 oops 04:36:53 rubberpaw has quit 04:36:56 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 06:22:59 texbook is available as tex but says that it's copyrighted material and only for use to test TeX :) 06:40:13 benja_: i try to do lob visual printter before i come 06:44:34 s/do/construct/ 07:33:50 huomenta 07:33:55 majukati, ok 07:34:06 s/construct/write/ :) 07:34:09 or make 07:34:13 perhaps 07:34:47 tuukkah, ? 07:35:01 oops as in, "oops, I'm still awake?" :) 07:35:06 done 07:35:11 :) 07:35:22 where shall we meet? 07:35:29 took 30 minutes more than i expected 07:35:43 I'm on second floor above the door next to the bus station at the moment 07:38:02 ok, it takes like 30 minutes to walk there 07:38:52 ok 07:43:23 pushed 07:43:57 I'll look at it while you come here 07:47:45 wow, another +4 post on slashdot for me :) 07:49:02 benja_, yes :-) 07:49:08 =) 07:49:39 libvob: Matti J. Katila , add lob's visual printout util to help documentation 07:49:46 "ajk (944)" 07:49:53 yeah, so?:) 07:50:08 nothing :) 07:50:18 rubberpaw has quit 07:51:53 typical that you get your +4 with a correcting post *plants tongue in cheek* 07:52:51 are you saying it was *not* an informative post? ;) 07:53:45 no, and I can't even say it was a +4 Nice Nitpick ;-) 07:54:00 heh 07:54:43 Ian doesn't like Ubuntu very much, does he 07:55:35 Ian? 07:55:45 from Debian :-) 07:56:14 DebIAN 07:56:23 murdock 07:56:57 (Deb|Ian)Murdock :-) 07:57:17 yeah 07:58:40 *looks at weblog* sounds to me like he's asking for one particular thing (debian compatibility), not saying "Ubuntu is bad" 07:59:57 aren't the same packages available for both, just not the same compiled binary packages 08:00:23 tuukkah, I don't know, try reading what he says yourself ;) 08:00:31 http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000244.html 08:00:50 yeah, I'm about to 08:00:58 "If you want a glimpse of what will happen, take a look at the RPM world, where software developers and ISVs have to build a different RPM for every RPM-based distro [...]." 08:02:12 now, 'to build' here has several meanings 08:03:05 to one the solution is source packages, to the other it's the fact that Ubuntu always forks from Sid 08:06:30 speaking of OSes, DragonflyBSD just made a release 08:55:53 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 10:03:15 majukati, benja: ayh? 10:08:02 jvk: yes 10:08:03 we are 10:11:47 rubberpaw has quit 10:12:43 benja: could we meet before the meeting? 10:13:49 ok, we are at the fireplace room 10:13:56 should we come to your office? 10:56:03 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 11:16:39 i hope the meeting goes fine 11:25:11 rubberpaw has quit 12:56:10 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 14:28:06 back, btw 14:29:11 hello 14:29:43 we need to get forms from teliasonera and kyperjokki, and sort out the rights thing 14:30:08 rights? 14:30:14 copyright 14:30:15 s 14:30:43 (who will own the copyrights created by the project and how the association can use them) 14:31:16 as in whether the copyright is assigned to persons, the association, or companies 14:31:33 it most likely has to be assigned to the university due to tekes process 14:31:54 and the university can't just give it away due to legal issues 14:32:04 -/ 14:32:38 so how do you go about sorting this out? consult lawyers? 14:32:45 the uni lawyer, yes 14:33:18 good. and then you get funding ?-) 14:33:39 then we have a better chance when they decide who gets funding 14:36:56 in a couple of weeks 14:37:18 so you're in hurry :-/ 14:37:38 well, they said we should have it in 2-3 weeks 14:38:06 that's not a problem except perhaps for the teliasonera part, which is out of our control 14:38:07 the sooner the better, I'd assume 14:38:10 y 14:38:26 kyperjokki is in fenfire's control ;-) 14:39:00 ;) 14:39:54 the tekes person also mentioned research-to-business funding 14:40:00 do you and the uni still have good contacts in teliasonera? then it probably won't take long 14:40:12 tuukkah, the problem is inside teliasonera 14:40:39 matti will ask the contact person there for the status 14:41:00 the research-to-business got us thinking again about business opportunities for the association 14:41:21 you are not allowed to think such =) 14:41:24 my opinion is that if we want the association to make money, we have to make that a goal and work for it 14:41:49 tuukkah, certainly we are allowed to consider how the association make money? 14:41:59 we have to make a legal business entity 14:42:17 ok, if you don't call it "making money" 14:42:31 whatever 14:42:37 "fund it's operation" 14:42:40 its 14:44:16 the point stands 14:44:35 rubberpaw has quit 14:45:02 if we want the association to have money for operation, we have to make that a goal and work for it. ok. :-) 14:45:16 =) 14:45:48 I've been wondering whether we have the interest / energy. whether I do, specifically, since I can't say much about you others =) 14:46:22 I suppose anybody is free to propose any kind of operation and budget for the association. then we'll hold a general meeting and decide 14:47:04 tuukkah, true, but that doesn't answer the question. and I think if the decision isn't clear before the general meeting there's no chance it can work anyway ;) 14:47:19 in the sense that it would have to be clear to all the relevant people that we want to do this 14:47:29 Tulitar has joined #fenfire 14:47:30 sure 14:47:43 hello Tulitar :-) 14:47:43 en sure. 14:47:46 matti would be willing to work on a business because it might provide a more stable way of getting income... 14:47:52 bonjour, Tulitar 14:47:53 Tulitar, oh, ensure what ?-) 14:48:19 bonjour tout le monde 14:48:31 wie gehts 14:48:41 benja_, gut, wie immer. 14:48:42 danke gut. gleichfalls? 14:48:53 ja, gleichfalls -) 14:48:55 benja_, und dir denn? 14:49:03 gut, danke :) 14:49:14 ca va? 14:49:23 oui oui, es geht +) 14:50:01 ca va ca va! 14:50:08 one idea I was considering was to have a service storing 'backup copies' of people's fenfire data 14:50:26 ('es geht' is like, 'well... ok...') 14:50:45 why backup copies in quotes? 14:50:57 because it would also allow them to access it from different computers 14:51:19 which would be as important as the backup functionality 14:51:31 hmm, so it would be something like gmail, mymac (?), wikiwikiweb.de 14:51:37 y 14:52:08 and the technology would also be googlefs 14:52:46 something like that (it should keep versions though) 14:53:09 oh yeah, so just something with storm directly 14:53:58 perhaps -- but that's technical details 14:54:45 my idea is that this way we would be delivering something that is actually interesting to us, as our product 14:54:53 I think we should think up scenarios with different kind of operations and respective budgets and ways to balance the budget 14:55:31 the technology comes into play when we think if we have enough energy 14:55:34 tuukkah, perhaps, but I think the most important thing is to think up ideas 14:55:59 my point being, I think at this level it is enough to consider "is it feasible," not work out the details... 14:56:24 "is it something that people want", thinking of what graham goes on about ;) 14:56:44 where people = we 14:56:54 tuukkah, no, I meant customers 14:57:05 but that question is important too 14:57:14 we need something that works on both of these counts ;) 14:57:25 the rest is implementation details ;) ;) 14:57:52 so in what point would there be enough fenfire users for there to be enough interested customers 14:58:08 (the one with the one smiley I meant, the one with the two smileys is tongue-in-cheek) 14:58:27 an earlier idea was to license code, right? 14:58:35 tuukkah, can we get enough users for fenfire, to be more precise -- but that's what you meant I think :) 14:58:39 tuukkah, yes 14:58:57 I'm not saying we shouldn't consider that, but I see the problem of enthusiasm for making it work 14:59:19 well, I wouldn't still be sure if they want a remote storage. there are such services already, but I don't know if they're popular 14:59:27 I think it would be significant work to make it something that customers (proprietary software companies) want 15:00:04 hm. I think I would strongly want such a thing if it *works* 15:00:09 I would expect Fenfire code to be such that no-one wants to re-implement it 15:00:26 except all students on the course ;-) 15:00:53 so is the case that the current services don't work? 15:01:29 tuukkah, I can't say anything for sure; I haven't used any of them 15:01:51 so how would we get people to try out ours? 15:02:11 tuukkah, well, it would be special in that it would be designed to work with fenfire 15:02:35 (basicly, I think the idea is a good one, but I don't know anything to say whether it'd work or not) 15:02:46 mhm 15:02:47 ok 15:03:16 let's perhaps not go into it too deeply before also trying to come up with other ideas 15:03:23 yes 15:03:41 we can start with the list from bylaws 15:03:44 an important question is, who do we want to get to use fenfire? 15:04:01 ourselves and our relatives :-) 15:04:17 can't find the english version 15:04:36 that would be my problem 15:05:36 I'm not excited about selling to businesses. not at all, I think :-/ 15:05:50 selling, erm, not as in for money 15:05:53 as in promoting to them 15:06:06 so, there goes licensing and office users 15:06:26 tuukkah, well, I'm not trying to cut anything off, just stating my feelings :) 15:06:38 what about researchers? 15:06:44 hmm 15:06:50 more interested in that, perhaps 15:07:07 but I'd really like to 'sell' it to creative people and hobbyists. hmm 15:07:34 rubberpaw has joined #fenfire 15:07:35 well, individuals, basically 15:07:59 perhaps I don't care so much if they use it for their job or whatever 15:08:18 what about administrative console like antont thought? 15:08:31 just that I don't really want to make something as company infrastructure and sell to a company 15:08:55 individuals who want to manage information 15:09:01 is what I'm most interested in, I think 15:09:03 how about you? 15:09:11 s/most //, perhaps 15:10:01 I don't know if I ever think that far 15:10:06 hmm 15:10:18 if I had something myself 15:10:46 fenfire is different from free software in general 15:10:52 hm? 15:11:12 I'm ready to work to get free software anywhere, I think 15:11:36 mhm 15:11:43 and the difference in Fenfire was? :) 15:11:44 the ethical argument is stronger than with fenfire 15:12:18 sorry, not following right now 15:12:23 well, perhaps the difference is mostly that I can already use free software in general, but not fenfire in particular 15:12:41 so I wouldn't want anyone to use it 15:13:03 but what I hope it would help me, I hope it would help people close to me too 15:13:11 hmm 15:13:26 programming is something 15:13:43 promoting fenfire to developers 15:14:19 I think I see part of the question as, who do we want to make it work for (as those would be the right customers for a potential business) 15:14:31 but hmm 15:15:21 apple makes profit by selling simple hardware that everybody can afford and use 15:15:45 so that would be one "business model" 15:15:48 ...by tying it to a proprietary os... 15:16:09 I don't think that's how they make moneys 15:16:27 tuukkah, in the sense that, to get the usability of the os you have to buy the hardware 15:16:31 I think the ipod sale is said to be the lucrative part 15:16:42 hmm 15:16:54 well, ok, it's most important for them now, perhaps 15:16:56 mac mini is pretty cheap 15:17:42 so the suggestion was to make fenfire boxes? 15:17:58 (trying to stay on topic;)) 15:18:09 although that hasn't worked for mac computers, next computers or beos computers 15:18:27 tuukkah, has worked for macs 15:18:37 if a fenfire box was cheap enough or built on commodity hardware 15:18:44 (apple's survived on it for decades:)) 15:19:02 fenfire pdas might be important at some point 15:19:05 hmmmmm 15:19:19 benja_, I think they had to get jobs back and microsoft had to buy them before they've managed this far 15:19:41 I think we should think of this oda 15:19:42 pda 15:20:10 [can we sell that idea to teliasonera somehow ;)] 15:20:36 would it be more like mass storage, app server or mobile terminal 15:20:48 which one? 15:20:55 the pda 15:21:06 mobile terminal 15:21:19 then teliasonera is related 15:21:43 I mean, addressing the need to enter ideas &c on the road 15:21:54 now I'm beginning to regret again that I didn't take a summer job in mobile software prototyping... %-) 15:22:53 benja_, ok, perhaps fenfire is designed to blend so that you can't really say which one it is. I mean, I don't think we'd *require* network connection 15:23:05 no 15:23:15 network connection wouldn't be that important 15:23:19 so not a dumb terminal by any means 15:23:21 no 15:23:31 mobile 'mini-computer' 15:23:41 but not much data storage, as we'd sync mostly 15:23:42 well, much like current pda in a sense 15:23:59 and not a pda with apps as it'd be really simple 15:24:13 or 15:24:15 it might be interesting to consider running ff from it-as-a-storage-medium, though 15:24:27 (not sure, just another idea) 15:24:31 what do you mean? 15:24:41 i.e., the 'usb key with my data so that I can use any computer I find' thing 15:24:58 yes, that was one of the ideas 15:25:16 but we can also have a simple UI 15:25:24 when I'm on the road, I use the device itself; when I sit down in front of a computer, I run ff from it 15:25:32 exactly 15:26:05 ok, idea is clear 15:26:08 I think 15:26:18 then we have to think if the connection will be usb storage, wireless etc. 15:26:31 yes, what's next 15:26:39 more ideas, if we have ;) 15:27:14 fenfire tutorials... (teaching) 15:27:59 when we have enough ideas, I think the next step would be to ask, which user are they for? Does that user want the thing? 15:29:26 how do we make that user discover that they want this? ;) 15:29:43 how much would they be able and willing to pay 15:30:08 teaching is something we already have experience of 15:30:13 -) 15:30:24 to find out whether it is a feasible business model at all, yes 15:30:41 'can we make the product for less than we would sell it for' 15:31:48 well, customization and integration is something for companies, but could it be practical for individuals with fenfire platform? 15:32:37 hm, what are you getting at? 15:33:05 customization should be feasible since that's part of the point ;) 15:33:25 but of course, spreadsheets allow it in a similar sense 15:33:52 I mean, could customization or integration be one business idea? 15:34:25 customization and integration for whom and into what? :) 15:35:13 customization to users' needs and integration to their existing platform 15:36:02 tuukkah, I find that too vague still :) 15:36:05 can you give an example? 15:36:19 wrt free software it would be interesting to set up a full-service shop 15:36:32 with fenfire, could we skip some difficult parts 15:37:03 someone orders fenfire, and they get someone to transfer their current data 15:37:09 hmm 15:37:21 and it comes in a piano black box ;-) 15:37:25 =) 15:37:54 and you can connect it to the services (mail etc.) and appliances (tv etc.) that they have 15:37:59 would my mother be a potential customer? she has hundreds, perhaps thousands of poems in ms word- and oo.o files 15:38:04 and would like to have them in ff 15:38:26 so we would try to do a conversion 15:39:14 so would that be a case you'd be interested in working on for a business? 15:39:20 would it be a typical case? 15:39:26 or are you thinking more of corporate users? 15:40:04 (in this case, the solution might be to write a half-automated conversion script) 15:40:28 (which tries to find the right boundaries of the poems in a file etc. and then asks the user whether it got it correctly) 15:41:34 I don't know, I was wondering 15:41:41 hmm 15:41:57 it might be interesting, working with individuals who want to use fenfire 15:42:25 I think many of these really have a lot in common :-) 15:42:47 many of which? the business ideas? doesn't seems so, to me ;) 15:42:59 but this one is related to the teaching one 15:43:09 so in the end, now that we've revolutionized software, next would be it services ;-) 15:43:24 now that we have! 15:43:26 :) 15:43:55 (well, I don't see much revolutionary stuff in the above) 15:43:59 well, of course the pda would access the storage 15:44:23 y 15:44:34 it's good, users don't like a revolutionary service, they want something that is common but this time it works ;-) 15:45:20 I think the 'customization and integration for end-users' could actually be fascinating work 15:45:21 and conversion would work to put old data into storage 15:45:50 but there's the question what we could realistically charge, and if we can deliver on that price 15:45:56 benja_, would it be few people like ted who care enough to afford? 15:46:01 hmm 15:46:30 perhaps 15:46:55 if it was people like ted, the job would be both extremely cool and extremely tough -) 15:47:34 anyway, perhaps these ideas aren't tightly integrated as to depend on each other, but they could help one another 15:47:43 zeah 15:47:45 yeah 15:48:20 and we can start with the best area and build incrementally into a whole platform 15:50:03 hmm 15:50:20 even if we had the best technology, we have to consider where the competition is tough 15:50:43 perhaps 15:50:52 and how others will deploy our technology if it gains success 15:50:55 I like what Graham said -- make something people want 15:50:59 worry about that 15:52:28 how do we make fenfire something that people want? 15:52:45 well, there aren't many things people want *and* get 15:53:08 hassle-free information management 15:53:38 tuukkah, for Fenfire, we definitely have to show people that they want it 15:53:46 to me, email feels like the biggest hassle 15:53:49 it falls into the category of things that people don't know they want 15:53:51 but do 15:54:05 but gmail might be good for most people 15:54:46 I think Fenfire is partly about the long tail in information schemas =-] 15:54:56 (you're familiar with the 'long tail' concept?) 15:56:58 the tails in normal distribution? 15:57:16 in power-law distribution, I think 15:57:34 the first half is the first 15 items, but the other half is the 30 billion other items 15:57:58 google is the premier search engine because it searches the other half too 15:58:07 to make it short ;) 15:58:25 amazon has most books in print, unlike your local bookstore 15:58:39 ok 15:58:49 and fenfire is? 15:58:58 Fenfire allows you to put in your own schemas, so you're not bound to the popular ones which do only half of what you need 15:59:31 so e-mail alone isn't the killer app, it's e-mail combined with pet mice feeding management ;-) 16:00:15 or to stay realistic, nobody is going to sell poem and readings management software to my mother 16:00:40 it's an app that's deep in the long tail 16:00:43 but like a complete personal information management system 16:00:59 an extensible pim system 16:02:21 matti111 has the point that with the storage server, most difficult might be to get customers to trust data into it, take care of security, respond to unexpected situations and such 16:03:03 perhaps 16:03:40 if you include 'and such', it just about covers it, yes ;) 16:05:55 our 'typical user' is one who already has information to organize 16:06:03 even if they don't organize it currently for lack of tools 16:06:14 ok, so we explicitly exclude developing the software and putting up the system 16:06:53 tuukkah, running the system seems more difficult than developing the software for it, yes 16:07:08 but it can be done, which is enough for me at this stage ;) 16:07:50 then there's this Ubuntu/Fenfire live-cd =) 16:08:59 hmm, you could also install java plugin and use fenfire the applet to access the storage 16:09:21 y 16:09:27 or download the app and run it 16:10:30 so to me, the most important questions seem to be, what do we need sofware-wise for these users? and how are we going to get them to use it? 16:11:05 of course as to the latter question, word-of-mouth is of course most important 16:11:26 and that they want it :-) 16:11:33 yes 16:11:53 it has to be in the shape that they need it to be to use it 16:11:58 to answer the first, jonne's view is good, email view would be good 16:12:16 pdf reader would be really good 16:12:32 hmm 16:12:38 all true, but these are very specific things 16:13:00 oh, more like: stability, reliability 16:13:10 right, and usability 16:13:16 learnability 16:13:38 depends. if we teach the first ones 16:13:44 like ourselves 16:14:55 that helps, but I think we still need to aim for something that nerds can download and use 16:15:07 or slightly nerdish people :) 16:15:28 hmm 16:15:46 what is the level below these -ility words 16:15:47 ;) 16:16:35 well, perhaps we should defer that. dunno 16:18:46 "requirements"? 16:19:14 yeah 16:19:38 * benja_ is hungry 16:20:07 ok, perhaps we should write these down and continue later 16:20:43 ok 16:20:54 what do we have so far 16:21:22 ideas: storage server, pda, fenboxes, teaching, customizing + data migration 16:21:37 first of all, we need to plan the operations of the association 16:22:01 tuukkah, what do you mean? that sounds a little too detailed to be 'first of all,' to me ;-) 16:23:07 that's why we're thinking in the first place 16:23:32 so it should be the last step :) 16:23:43 (final product of thinking :)) 16:23:47 the enclosing step 16:23:52 ok, fine 16:25:10 customer groups: licensors, corporate desktops, corporate administration, home users, individuals who manage information, relatives, ourselves 16:25:26 hmm 16:25:27 ok 16:26:19 my favorite customer group: individuals who already have information to manage and would see a benefit from managing it in Fenfire 16:26:34 yes 16:26:39 that includes people in companies, but not the company rolling ff out over 200 desktops 16:27:33 advertising method: word-of-mouth, mention it in forums to seed that 16:27:58 and to people we know 16:28:46 feasibility: people must want it, there must be enough potential customers, they must want and be able to pay the expenses, we must be able to run the service 16:29:06